more rules for eagle projects+

[moosetracker]

Here are some warning labels placed on products due to stupid people doing stupid things.. Proof positive that we should have the scouts just sit and do nothing due to the stupid people of the world.

 

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Washing Machine : "DO NOT put any person in this washer"

 

Chainsaw : "Do not hold the wrong end of a chainsaw"

 

Oven : All ranges can tip if you or child stand sit or lean on open door

 

Phone Book : Caution: Please do not use this directory while operating a moving vehicle"

 

Scubbing Bubbles product : "Do not use for personal hygiene"

Windsheild sunscreen product : Warning: do not drive with sunshield in place."

 

Liquid Plummer : Warning: Do not reuse the bottle to store beverages.

 

Windex : Do not spray in eyes.

 

Screwdriver set : "6PCS Precision screwdriver set not to be inserted into PENIS"

 

Curling Iron : Warning: This product can burn eyes."

Curling Iron : "For external use only"

 

Dremel Electric Rotary Tool : This product not intended for use as a dental drill.

(this must have been one of our scout Eagle projects that restricted use of the Dremel tool.. Perhaps someone setup a free clinic)..

 

Hair Coloring : Do not use as an ice cream topping.

 

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Fact is RichardB.. ANYTHING is dangerous around stupid people. If you try to age proof against stupid people NOTHING can be used by ANYONE. As stupid people come at all ages.. You will NEVER be able to protect stupid people from themselves.

 

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edited to add this for a reason to put age limit on wheelbarrow.. (although I think the age is wrong, should be not allowed to use AFTER the age of 16)..

 

On a 13-inch wheel on a wheelbarrow : "Not intended for highway use." --(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[RichardB]

Heard a couple quotes recently:

 

Precision operations are intrensically safe. "Bru" - a pilot

 

Ingnorance is not knowing. Stupid is knowing and doing it anyway.

 

- Larry Winget

 

May ignorance be lifted.

[skeptic]

Actually, by restrictions on wheeled vehicles, we will then encourage lashing of travois'

for moving materials. So, we will enhance this currently little used skill. Just think of the ingenuity the scouts will need to move things without "modern" methods of conveyance.

[Eagle92]

Richard,

 

Could we be a little reasonable here as your replys seem to be that you are taking it a little to personal? I gave you specific, stressing SPECIFIC, examples of Scouts using the equipment that is not longer allowed.

 

Can you give us specific instances that the BSA has encountered? Not asking for stats because I can tell you that whatever number of accidents you have, I am willing to bet the number of non-accidents will be 20+ times that number.

 

Also you never answered my questions about how is using a cart dangerous, how can the BSA allow a 10yo with Totin Chip use axes, but not a specific subtype, how common lawn maintenance tools used by 10yos are considered dangerous, does your son cut the grass and at what age did he start, are we going to reword requirements for merit badges to forbid these tools, and why is it better for an adult who can swim better to take a non swimmer out in a boat than a 16yo certified lifeguard, or in the case of Venturing an 18yo Lifeguard instructor ( remember 18 is a youth for both OA and Venturing purposes).

 

I hate to say it, but you have not given any arguments except hypotheticals. Further as Moose has shown, anything can be used to do stupid things.

[Eagle92]

Forgot to add last nite, and in every single hypothetical case you gave, the same thing could happen to an adult using the same equipment, i.e. fallig off a semi with a cart, falling from a ladder while cleaning the gutters,etc. Also I am willing to bet some of your hypotheticals are you going to the extreme, i.e. the scout doing steeple work.

[Kudu]

 

Count your blessings!

 

If I was in charge, I would employ Baden-Powell's standards to prohibit Boy Scouts from using ANY tool that they have not personally backpacked 50 miles in to the job site.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

 

[RichardB]

http://scoutingmagazine.org/contact/letters-to-the-editor-about-our-november-december-2011-issue/

 

Please read through the link, reference merit badges. I'd also recommend that one actually takes some time to re-read the documents again.

 

"Because they can do it at home". How do we plan to balance a real or perceived standard of care for someone else's child? Is it the same with our own child?

 

Lets look at the church steeple (or make it the Widows barn if you want) While we are justifiying that concept outside of personal experiences and feelings - what is the generally accepted standard of care for a roof construction project? What would happen if Timmy fell off the roof at church on his own? Would the church knowingly let a him up there to begin with. What restrictions would they impose? What would city standards for roofing require? What insurance would they require?

 

To intentionally go on a rabbit trail - so since Timmy plays video games and texts with his smart phone then he must use them on the next camp out?

 

[JMHawkins]

It's increasingly clear to me that the wrong approach and mindset are being used with regard to saftey guidelines. We get the nonsensical results we get because things like pushing a wheelbarrow along a trail are apparently confused by safety "experts" with falling off a tractor trailer.

 

Frankly it's probably a good thing the general public is ignorant of BSAs safety regulations. If they knew the details, they'd be likely to conclude BSA knows nothing about the subject and simply responds to accidents by banning entire categories of activities without understanding what exactly led to the accident. Is an organization who's most effective response to a kid falling off a tractor trailer is to ban hand carts doing anything proactive to prevent the next injury?

 

[TAHAWK]

Alcohol is "not recommended." Why? I hear there was an accident having nothing to do with a stove at all.

 

Home-made alcohol stoves, including non-pressurized stoves, are "prohibited." Why?

 

If I buy it off the Internet, is it "home-made"?

 

Factory-made alcohol stoves, including pressurized stoves, are not prohibited, just "not recommended." Why? They are the most popular stove in Scouting. Renewable fuel. LNT. Conservation.

 

Jellied alcohol?

 

All-home-made "chemical" stoves are prohibited. Buddy Burners? They use CnH2n+2.

 

Candles used to heat food? Chemical fuel for sure

 

Heat Tabs on a rock? Chemical fuel for sure.

 

Cellulose as a fuel? Chemical fuel for sure.

 

Coleman fuel is less dangerous?

 

Propane? (BOOM!)

 

How about an all-cold food menu?

 

Don't we teach that being "directive" without explanation is a questionable leadership style in a volunteer organization?

 

How about giving orders that seem arbitrary and that you have no practical way to enforce? What does that do to authority and "discipline"? The military teaches that it does nothing good.

 

Or is this just CYA?

 

BOOM!

[CalicoPenn]

If we're going to be bombarded with examples, can we at least be bombarded by realistic examples? A church steeple? Really?? How many church steeple restorations have been an Eagle Scout project? Heck, how many Eagle Scout projects have there been where the project is re-roofing a building? How many churches would want a rank amateur re-roofing their building? As for church steeples, this is a specialty service that most roofing contractors aren't qaulified for. Are you aware that most church steeple restorations are done by taking the steeple off the roof by crane, rebuildng the steeple at ground level, then resetting the steeple on the roof by crane? Do you know how much it costs just for the crane?

 

Of course, now you might be tempted to ban the use of cranes by Scouts - don't bother - most states have laws that strictly govern the use of cranes - heck, a lot of states have strict regulations on when cranes can be driven to job sites, usually based on crane size - and don't even ask what kind of regulations cranes need to follow when they are in close proximity to an airport.

 

That's the problem with these kinds of rules - they're often based on worst-case "what if's" that don't even apply in the first case.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Richard,

 

Thanks for the reply on MBs, but you still have not answered the rest of my questions.

 

As for the link to the article. Read it and it doesn't answer my questions, unless you consider the BSA's members and volunteers employees. Then I understand DOL and OSHA rules. And if we are to be considered employees, where's my paycheck ?

 

Otherwise I would not use them, nor do I really consider them "experts" but rather bureaucrats. After all they are the ones who recently tried to place restrictions that would not allow farm families to have their children do chores. It would also put restrictions of schools for that matter, i.e. 4-H and FFA livestock events. Fortunately enough people protested the idiocy and it was decided not to follow through.

 

Now the MB response adds another question I now have. Say a Scout has received the proper training, not only through his school but through his MBC earning the MB. Wouldn't that make him qualified to use the equipment in question? IMHO it would be a waste of the Scouts KSAs, and a pity too, that the stuff he learned in Scouting as evidenced by his MB for whatever topic, could not be used for his Project,

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

I'm now shakin' my head in wonder and bafflement even more than I was earlier, eh?

 

RichardB, if yeh can post here even one genuine report of a serious accident from a scout workin' on an approved project re-roofing a church steeple more than 25 feet off the ground I'll buy yeh a bottle of your favorite single malt. A lad who gets lead poisoning from scraping paint off of 25 foot high lightpoles with an unsecured ladder gets yeh a whole case.

 

Have a lot of hobgoblins eatin' young boys in your neighborhood too?

 

I honestly think that yeh have perhaps chosen the wrong career path, and yeh really need to move back into industry. Yeh look out at Scouting and yeh see a vast ocean of untrained, wildly unqualified kids and adult leaders doin' the most bizarre, hazardous things yeh can imagine, with the Angel of Death hoverin' at all of our elbows. We need to be controlled, We need to be your employees, We need federal regulation even though Congress has deliberately and thoughtfully exempted us from all da regulations yeh wish to subject us to. You know better than the Congress.

 

The rest of us look out at Scouting and see millions of wonderful, capable young people and committed, skilled adult leaders pitching in together to make America and their local communities a better place. By and large da folks who are workin' with kids on projects are folks like TwoCubDad, eh? People who have more experience than you do workin' in the trades and workin' with youth, and who are far more familiar with da appropriate standards of care in their communities.

 

Only one of those visions is really compatible with Scouting. If yeh don't share the vision, lad, that's fine, we understand. Scoutin' is increasingly countercultural in its mission and belief that boys can truly lead, and manage themselves, and become skilled and Prepared members of their community. Not everybody is comfortable with the realities of that mission. But if you're not, then this isn't place for you. You'll never be happy, and you'll only generate division. That mission and belief is who we are, and your current path damages the image and reputation of the BSA, and discredits the brand.

 

There are lots of industry jobs openin' up as the economy slowly thaws. Maybe it's time to think about returnin' to the work yeh seem more comfortable with? Until then, I think yeh need to take a few steps back from this particular cliff, eh? Time to tie in and rig some safety lines before yeh get too exposed. Form a commission. Conduct a study. Engage in a comprehensive review. You know the drill.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[skeptic]

Over the years have sent parts or all of projects back to the drawing board upfront due to concerns about safety. One boy wanted to trim a mangy tree that was over 25 feet tall and fairly old that was on his church property. We told him this was not something he was qualified to do, and the church should hire a professional. He found something to keep him on the ground. At an ordeal, we have adults using torches, or doing roofing, but never scouts. I had to run a large powered hole digger one year, as it was too cumbersome and heavy for most scouts. Younger scouts often are only put on jobs that are fairly easy and have no intrinsic danger. Probably could come up with many other examples. Point is that common sense and adult supervision is already at play; and if leaders take the job seriously, the danger is probably less than a scout riding his bike or walking to school.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

Hypothetical examples given by RichardB as a argument for why we need these rules:

 

Re-roof the church steeple24 foot ladder to scrape the lead paint off the light poles in the playgroundClean gutters on the homes of the elderly in town as a fundraiser.Using a hand cart to move stacks of boxes off a semi trailerFloating air pumps and hoses used while diving a few feetUsing a scaffold to go to the ceiling so he can change the lights.Digging into a gas lineHaving a roof collapseDealing with asbestosGetting a smashed finger from loading something.

 

Actual things banned by the form:

PickaxeMattockPosthole diggerWheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled)Paint roller with extension poleScrewdriver (electric)Handheld sander (small)Cutting tools (e.g., Dremel, small)Paint sprayerResidential lawn mowerLine trimmeredgerLeaf-blowerhedge trimmerbelt sanderpressure washer

 

How do these lists have anything whatsoever to do with each other?

[perdidochas]

Tahawk,

 

Only liquid and gaseous (at room temperature) fuels are considered chemical fuels. Solid (at room temperature) fuels are not considered chemical fuels.

 

From G2SS

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss06.aspx

 

Be aware that chemical fuels and equipment create very different hazards than traditional wood, charcoal, and other solid fuels; this policy defines how to address those hazards.

 

 

 

Chemical fuelsLiquid, gaseous, or gelled fuels.