Lead by example?

[Scoutfish]

So, not traying to condemn any one person or say there is an absolute line in the sand about right or wrong, but........do we look at ourselves the same way we look at scouts when certain behaviors or levels of acceptable behavior are concerned?

 

For example, we have a few DL's who will expect a scout to attend all specific events' , required meetings ( covering particular skills, requirements, etc...) when it comes to earning a rank or award.

 

And they are just in doing so.

 

But, why do we think that it no longer applies to us.

 

And again, this is not directed to any one individual in particular.

 

Okay, at an EBOR, scouts are regularly asked if they felt they have lived up to the scout law.

WE expect them to make good moral decisions in regards to everything they do, every award earned, and even to refuse a MB that wasn't 100% up to par.

 

Yet as scouters, we have no issue with doing less, charging more, sidestepping the rules because it is easier/cheaper/quicker/ more fun/self promoting/ or we think it should be that way instead of the way it really is.

 

Adult knots, training, rules about advancements and concerning adding/subtracting requirements are constantly talked about in these forums.

 

(Some) WoodBadgers will look down their noses at non-WoodbDgers just because they do not have WB.

 

WE judge other scouters we meet for the very first time by the number of knots they do or do not have. WE judge scouts and their ability as well as their mentality by wether they have a full uniform on or not.

 

We even chastise scouts for not wearing their uniform as sharply as we percieve it should be, but then we ask if we should cut corners on adult awards, register trailers in other states because it's just easier overal, or we directly attack each other with vile insults because we agree or disagree with a new program, that we all have almsot no person experience with.

 

 

And yet we expect scouts to be perfect model citizens. IT's almost like we can't wait for them to screw up so we can thump our chest with all our procedural knowledge and intelect in showing them why they are wrong and failed.

 

Sorry son, you didn't bring your scout handbook to your BOR so we are gonna fail you. You need to reschedule another BOR , just don't do it next week because we are gonna be busy registering our trailer in a state we don't go to, while on our way home from the scout shop where we bought knots for leaders who didn't quite meet the requirements that we felt were to strict anyways. Can't do the next week either because we will be busy going to RT and scoffing at the new guys and the ones who do not have their WB neckers yet.Probably can't do it the week after that either, gotta insult some people who participate in activities I do not personally like > But keep your head up, you will get there one day. Remember, it's all about living up to the scout law!"

[Basementdweller]

Ya know fish, a few days in the woods with the boys will straighten things out......

 

 

Scouting gets caught up in the Eagle chase, Merit Badge universities, Troop trailers and all the other nonsense that really doesn't matter.

 

Too many adults get caught up in the nonsense that scouting can become.

 

 

I enjoy the banter around the campfire, the bickering about menus, complaints of sore feet, the smiles of the boys who didn't think they could do it.....The parents saying their son has changed and is more confident....

 

Like you I think it sets a bad example....

 

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

In Cub Scouts our motto is "Do Your best."

 

That is both a high ideal and goal and a recognition that we are very human and can be expected to fail in doing as well as we would like.

 

I'm teaching new Kindergarteners what "Do Your Best" means right now. I begin teaching it in conjunction with a fun activity or competition when boys naturally strive to do their best.

 

I then generalize it by suggesting that it's easy to do your best in a fun activity, and a lot harder to get in the habit of doing your best all the time. I suggest that what we try to do is to get in the habit of doing your best even when it isn't fun to do so, and may involve practice which can be difficult to do.

 

 

>

 

 

A lot of leadership decisions involve making judgements. Rigid application of rules is not necessarily a wise thing to do all the time.

 

So I generally aim to follow "the rules," but there may be occasions and reasons where doing so is not to be helpful, friendly, courteous, kind or wise. On such occasions the world may work better and be a better place by occasionally ignoring the rules when there is good reason to do so.

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

As I learned this weekend, we have to set the example and do, not what we want to do, but what is needed to be done that benefits those we are responsible for.

 

In regards to knots, yes I think the requirements needs to be followed. Can it suck sometimes, most definitely. I know very good leaders who are missing out b/c they don't do roundtables. And I see some "interesting" leaders get stuff who are probably relying on the good ones to provide a program. And I've seen leaders who get stuff and I scratch my head 'cause I've never seen them at RTs, grant you our CS RTs have been relatively non-existant but info has been given out, and I never see them at trainings, district activities, etc.

 

In regards to trailer registration, I got a big "HUH?" I don't understand how you can register a trailer in one state, and live in another. Let me add the caveat, under normal circumstances. I have military friends who have their cars and what not registered in their home states while they are moving all over the country with their duty assignments.

 

As for my expereince in the woods this weekend, I realized that folks with little to no experience WILL follow you off a cliff, or in my case camp in a severe thunderstorm with hail and hours of rain, because they are trusting you and following your example. Grant you most of the folks left after dinner, but there were a few that were going to tough it out because I was.

 

I was going to let one person's comment a year or so ago cloud my judgement. Ok I was constantly tuned into weather radio and the 'net getting updates. And tried to push the decision to almost the last minute. But when the time came to make the decision, I let the the stupid comment "you're leaving because you're afraid of the rain" to affect me.

 

Luckily a nice little walk to the ranger's house listening to the weather radio and seeing one of the pack's new family's have their tent blow about looking like Gumby got me to my senses.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[Eagle732]

"So, not trying to condemn any one person or say there is an absolute line in the sand about right or wrong, but........do we look at ourselves the same way we look at scouts when certain behaviors or levels of acceptable behavior are concerned?"

 

I notice that there are some here who appear to be very quick in assuming the worse and are quick to pass judgements on others. I've seen it many times in the past but I thought the comments made on a recent thread were over the top. Questioning wether someone is living up to their Eagle Charge (an unofficial ceremonial element which was not part of my ceremony 40 years ago) and questioning their integrity is totally disrespectful and uncalled for.

 

I'll site a few other examples of disrespectful posts in the hopes that maybe in the future we can be a little more considerate of others.

 

Once when a Cub mom asked about where to place patches on the uniform and she was rudely told to go look it up by more than one poster. She left swearing she would never post here again. What a great first (and last) impression we made.

 

Some may recall probably one of the longest running threads where there was a two year discussion lasting over 100 pages about a scout appealing his Eagle BOR to National. Many assumptions and many derogatory statements were made about the scout, the mom and the SM involved. I weighed in since I actually knew all parties involved personally. I found it humorous to read how this situation was all a lie and that there is no way an appeal could last two years the day after I had spoke with the SM involved at a council dinner. When I posted that it was in fact still going on I was basically called a lier too.

 

I was actually told repeatedly by a poster here that I should follow the Scout Law and be "Obedient" when I called and questioned Philmont's policy of requiring Wilderness First Aid training and not recognizing any other certification like EMT or Paramedic. I see that they recognize many different types of medical certifications today. I think that's an improvement and am glad in that case I wasn't "Obedient".

 

Maybe I've been guilty of being judging others in the past too but I do make a conscious effort not to. I find myself deleting some of my comments before hitting the submit button in an attempt to remain courteous. I'm pretty thick skinned and none of this bothers me personally. I do think that Scouters being disrespectful to others is not beneficial to this forum or Scouting in general. We should be setting the example and practicing what we preach to our own Scouts. That doesn't mean that we all have to agree but we should all try to respect each other's opinions.

 

I subscribe to Scouts-L where this type of personal disrespect is rarely seen. Maybe it's because on Scouts-L people post under there real name and so there's some accountability in what you write.

 

I think it should be fairly obvious that if you're spending time here you're a dedicated Scouter and that you want the best program possible for your Scouts. One of the great things about Scouting is that the programs are as diversified as the units providing them and there's room for everyone. Maybe we can think a little about what we're about to post before we hit the submit button.

 

This is just my opinion.

[Basementdweller]

Ya know I own a landscaping trailer, my state charges me $65 per year and my county charges me another $65 per year to license it. With the cost of gas that is more to my overhead. As a business man it is very appealing to register my trailer in Maine for $180 for 12 years. But I don't intend on mowing grass in maine and I use my roads locally.

 

 

So my civic responsibility is to pay my road taxes thru fuel and licensing....

 

 

I am comfortable with my civic responsibility and contributions. I am allowed to grumble about it.

 

Far as camping in foul weather, it is a local decision and the person with the feet on the ground needs to make the call, but how many troops and pack cancel simply because there is rain forecast, rare is the Tornado or severe forecast more than about 6-12 hours out. We backpacked this weekend 15 miles it rained friday night and most of saturday temps were in the 40's. The boys did fantastic and had a blast, despite the mud.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Scoutfish, right there with yeh.

 

I think this is a lesson that all humans everywhere need to learn and refresh over and over again. Because we're all human. We never live up to bein' the people we really hope we will be. We often look to the mote in the eyes of others while ignorin' the plank in our own. I know I make that mistake often enough to be ashamed by it, much as I try not to. I count on the compassion of the boys and my fellow scouters to see through by blundering to my better intent.

 

And, too, I reckon when dealin' with the lads we often miss in our guess as to what a boy or a program needs. Sometimes yeh need to be compassionate and let things slide; sometimes yeh need to be hard-nosed and hold the line. What we do for the boys should not be based on the fact that we aren't perfect, but on what each boy needs at that moment, what the program needs at that moment. Sometimes we hold the line because that's the right thing to do for the boys, even though we aren't always da best example. Sometimes we let things slide for the boys even though we personally would never let that slide for ourselves or our own kids. Because it's about what they need, eh?

 

And sometimes, we guess wrong about what they need. And apologize to 'em, and move on tryin' to do better. I know I have more times than I can count.

 

Thanks for the reminder that part of da reason we all work in scoutin' is because it helps us to learn and re-learn those lessons of character ourselves.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Base,

 

THANK YOU for this comment as you don't know how much it means.

 

Far as camping in foul weather, it is a local decision and the person with the feet on the ground needs to make the call, but how many troops and pack cancel simply because there is rain forecast, rare is the Tornado or severe forecast more than about 6-12 hours out.

 

I guess I am still second guessing myself a bit. I know with a Boy Scout troop, and possibly with Webelos who have expereince camping, I would have stayed, taking precautions like moving to the shelters that are aroudn the camp.

 

As for the forecast not being known 6-12 hours, you got that right. We had folks with their smart phones and me with my radio monitoring the weather all day. And the forecast changed almost hourly. No thunderstorms, thunderstorms, heavy rain, moderate rain, heavy winds, moderate winds, etc. Only thing that wasn't mentioned was hail, which we did have.

[Basementdweller]

The only severe long term forecast would be like Fishes example of a hurricane or a blizzard in the plains.

 

A month ago that tornado out break in texas was predicted 24 hours in advance, I remember watching the news and the forecaster saying, " It isn't a matter of if we are going to having tornado tomorrow but where and how big." I am not sure about what I would have done had the troop or pack had something planned that day.

[Eagle92]

Base,

 

We had the tornado situation last year. Here is what was decided.

 

Those who wanted to could camp out Friday nite when it was safe. Alot of folks did.

 

Saturday morning we had a hike planned and take down. DEPENDING upon the situation, we may have lunch and fishing, or we would leave. And we had a family come in just for the hike.

 

The group left around 11:30, with me being caboose at 12PM. Camp ranger stopped by to advise us to leave while we were packing as we had the weather radio with us. Luckily camp is 30 minutes away.

 

Tornados hit the area around 3:30-4PM time frame. Talking tot he families that had soccer or baseball games that day, some of the games ended at 2:30.

 

 

[skeptic]

Base';

 

Really like this; "I enjoy the banter around the campfire, the bickering about menus, complaints of sore feet, the smiles of the boys who didn't think they could do it.....The parents saying their son has changed and is more confident.... "

 

Seen it many times. A boy on an outing generally sees or learns something new. And the pride of an 11 year old that decided to sleep out in the open and "survived" is amusing and inspiring. We just came back from Camporee, and I was happy to see the boys starting to finally work together; but it takes patience, especially when you have a number of "challenge" kids. (Have a brand new one; an am holding my breath, but think he can be brought around with patience and "balanced" counseling).

 

Yes Fish; we should always strive to set an example, not only in front of the scouts and families, thought that is critical, but here and any place we are. Someone is almost always watching. I lost my temper once on a campout when older scouts hazed another, as well as decided "all spiders should be caught and thrown in the fire". We had a guest parent and Webeloe with us; and they were never seen again except in another unit.

 

Good thread.

[Eamonn]

As a little fellow it was drilled into me that I should tell the truth and not tell lies.

I was also told not to tell Uncle Paddy that his breath was terrible, even though it was.

I wasn't allowed to make mention of or about the silly hats that some women wore to church.

Any comment about how we were treated by the nuns would most certainly land us on the highway to hell.

I'm older now and am still learning.

I found out when asked "How does this look?" That "Fine" isn't an acceptable answer and Lord help me when the "Does this make my butt look fat?" Is asked.

 

When a Lad joins a Troop 99.9% of the time he gets as a SM, someone who is an upstanding and normal person.

In my case I know that I'm not fault free, I know that I have my failings. While I wish I was that shining light on the hill I'm not. The best I can be and try to be is fair. I try to treat people fairly and try to treat people the way that I like to be treated.

Most of the time there are no rules about fairness.

I look at what needs to be done and dealt with and I decide what's fair.

This falls under the heading of Ethics.

I'm not going out of my way to hurt someone if a little white lie prevents the hurt.

Given enough time I suppose I could come up with a long list of ethical situations where not following the letter of the law /rule does for me seem the right thing to do but again for me seems the ethical thing to do.

Life might be a lot easier if all the rules and all the laws covered each and every possible and conceivable situation.

Sure the speed limit is set at whatever but it's OK to break it if your rushing to get the squirrel out of your Mother-in-laws living room or when you get news that your kid has been hurt someplace. Or if your the SM with the keys to the meeting place and there is 30 Scouts standing outside waiting to get in and the list could go on and on.

Most of us most of the time want to or think that we are doing what we think is right.

I'm far to lazy to save a few dollars by registering my trailers in another State. But maybe if I had lots of trailers and I knew for sure that it was legal and I'd save a lot of money by doing so? I might.

But here again my ethics kick in. Is it ethical for me to do this? Even if it is legal?

A little fellow waiting nervously for his BOR without his Handbook?

Hopefully there is a record of his advancement close to hand and the need for the book isn't that great, but if the only place where his advancement has been recorded is in the book? Maybe not having the book means that the board can't do the job at hand.

If the board has the needed information and the only reason for saying no to the Lad is that the rule says "Have your book." - Then in my view the board isn't being fair even if the Lad isn't following the rule.

Even with all the rules and laws there is still times when we are faced with what we think is right. Other might not agree with us but in my book if you really follow your heart and do what you think and know to be right,while people might disagree with you they can't really fault you.

Eamonn