Forum responses to parent questions & complaints

[Beavah]

Yah, so now. Time for a moment of reflection, eh?

 

In the parent thread to this one, a mom who was new to Venturing sent the fur flyin' by alleging what seemed to be YP violations of a moderately serious nature.

 

That engendered the usual forum response of a whole mess of people flyin' off the handle, winding the VentureMom up with rules quotes and instructions to call the SE and florid condemnations of the venturing advisor in question.

 

After all of that, and everyone flyin' off the handle here, we learn that in fact there weren't any youth protection "violations" at all. Not a one. Just some ordinary new parent communication issues, eh? And here we have been, as fellow scouters, condemning one of our brothers from afar and sending a mom who just needed some thoughtful reassurance off to file complaints with the SE and everybody else.

 

How many times does this have to happen before we learn, I wonder.

 

I know that there's great emotional satisfaction in seeing "violations" and quotin' Authority and all the rest, eh? Righteous indignation can be titillating. But we try to live by a Law, and to my mind that means we should be Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, and Kind. I think, on reflection, that should include how we think of and treat our fellow leaders who aren't present here. Scouters the world over are good, responsible people, and we should begin by truly believin' that of each other.

 

We all fail at the Law sometimes. I certainly do.

 

But hopefully we learn.

 

Beavah

 

[desertrat77]

Beavah, I concur.

 

And I appreciate the wisdom and even-handed approach you bring to these topics...much needed clarity.

[shortridge]

Woah! How's the air up there atop that tall equine, Beavah?

 

We can only answer the questions and address the issues that are put in front of us, based on the information that is put in front of us. At no time are any of us under the illusion that we're getting the complete, total story. When we chat on a forum like this, there's always an understanding about the limitations of our perspective. But we do try to respond as best we can and offer the best advice that we can, nevertheless.

 

I'm glad that that situation turned out just fine. But I certainly stand by my observations in that thread, and I'd make them again under similar circumstances.

 

Directing parents to the YPT rules can never, ever be a bad thing.

[Scoutfish]

I stand with shortridge on thsi one. Not everybody sggested calling the police or the welfare department on this guy. Not all of us suggested calling the FBI and claiming he was a sexual predator.

 

"and to my mind that means we should be Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, and Kind. "

 

Yeah, ascouter is also obedient and courteous too.

 

 

And that also applies to a leader who tells parents one thing, does something else, and then passes away the phone when the parents are concerned about it.

 

The scouter swears to follow the scout law, the parents haven't ( although it would be nice if they did!) And following the scout law means to everybody, not just fellow scouters.

[Twocubdad]

It happens, Beav, you're correct.

 

But in this situation, I don't think we were too far off base. Most of the advice was to ask more questions of folks up the chain of command. How far up varied, but even you suggested contacting the CC. And fairly early-on it was noted that we were dealing with youth protection policy violations, not actual abuse.

 

(I will allow that I didn't care for the diversion into a general distrust of older, single volunteers, but that wasn't really related to the OP, either.)

 

Given the facts presented in the original thread, I don't see how we can reasonably suggest anything other than the parent get to the bottom of the situation immediately. Communicating a sense of urgency and the potential seriousness of the situations was resaonable as well.

[Beavah]

 

We can only answer the questions and address the issues that are put in front of us, based on the information that is put in front of us.

 

Not to speak too much more from the high horse that shortridge has saddled up for me, but this to me is just a lame cop-out. We have a brain, eh?

 

There's no reason why we have to accept what is "put in front of us" at face value. We can apply a touch of skepticism, a dollop of experience, and the fundamental principle that the overwhelming majority of people involved in Scouting are good, decent, honorable folks who just care about kids. In other words, we can stay Mentally Awake.

 

Nah, fellow scouters aren't perfect. They make the same mistakes we do. But as a group they are neither stupid nor wicked. It takes very little thought or imagination to combine what we know about scouters and scouting more generally with the one-sided perspective we're readin' and get to a view that is far more likely to be closer to the truth, and more helpful to the questioner.

 

It's just not as emotionally satisfyin'.

 

The point is that by "standing by" what we said without thinkin' through things clearly, we gave objectively poor advice to a visitor. That's not Helpful. I reckon that's somethin' we should care about, eh? There is no virtue in "standing by" poor advice. The only virtue is correctin' it so that next time we do better. That's "we", eh? Me as well as everyone else. It wasn't half a page in before we were firin' the Advisor and suggesting missing work to go pull the kid from the trip.

 

We live up to the Oath and Law for our visiting parent questioners by takin' the time to listen more careful, apply more of our experience, and being more truly helpful.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[packsaddle]

"How many times does this have to happen before we learn, I wonder."

Heh, heh, I followed that thread. How many times before we learn? We won't.

I could just as well ask, "Why does a show like Jerry Springer succeed?" For that matter I could include just about all of 'reality' television.

But actually, I'm wrong with that first answer. We do learn and then we continue to repeat the behavior anyway. We know better. We choose to react the way we do.

 

Why are we like this? My answer, glib and with intended humor, is that "we are monkeys". It isn't a complete answer but it pretty much satisfies most of my questions.

We are a really unique species of monkey which evolved an obscenely large brain and then emerged from Africa to swarm over the earth like no other species ever has, except for rats which seem to be tightly linked to us...and perhaps a few parasites and STDs. Heh, heh, I just sit back and enjoy the show sometimes... ...in horrified fascination. No need for television.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[qwazse]

Or, Pack, we are fashioned in the image of a benevolent Maker, and are just trying to figure out how to reflect that before we muck things up too much. Either way, enjoy the show.

 

Let's face it, sometime we scouters forget how the way we run the program may not mesh with a parent's world view. Reading how different folks react to a situation I may likely find myself in helps me choose a course of action in the real world that will be respectful to all.

[Stosh]

For the most part, by the time any of these issues reach the forum the conflict has escalated beyond useful resolution anyway.

 

If one is observant one will realize that there are only 6 different levels of conflict and only those dealt with on the first level can be resolved.

 

Level 1 - Problem identification. "The roof in the Scout Room leaks." Hey, I can solve that problem because I know what the problem is. Piece of cake.

 

Level 1 never makes it to the forum posts.

 

Level 2 - Confusion. "There's a real mess in the Scout Room." Does anyone know how to fix this? Nope, not until someone takes it down to Level 1 and explains clearly what the "mess" is.

 

Ever notice the forum threads where insufficient information is available to make even a wild guess at a solution?

 

Level 3 - Blame. "Scoutmaster Smith isn't doing his job when it comes to the Scout Room." Like this next step is any where near resolution of the problem.

 

Need I even suggest the number of forum posts that deal with conflict on this level?

 

Level 4 - Gamesmanship. Here's were the real fun begins. Choose up sides and define the rules. Quotes from august literary, but obscure references to win. YP quotes, National says... my council says... the DE says.... "Let me be Devil's Advocate here...." SM Handbook, pg. 174, paragraph 2 says....

 

Here's where the 4-5-6 page threads run on and on showing the opposing forces how well they are winning the game. Keep it in mind, though, you want everyone to stay in the game because if they leave the fun will be over. Knowing the other person's "button" is really a great and fun strategy at this level.

 

Level 5 - Divorce. Okay, games over, kick the bum out. Martial the forces and get rid of the SM or the CM or the DL or the....

 

Level 6 - Jihad. "I don't care if it destroys my scouting career, the troop, and drags the reputation of the BSA through the mud, I'm going to do the world a favor by destroying..." (then fill in the blank.)

 

 

Resolution on Level 1 is quite easy.

 

Resolution on Level 2 needs clarification to take it down to Level 1 where it can be resolved quite easily.

 

Resolution on Level 3 needs to be taken off the playground, clarified down to Level 1 where it can be resolved quite easily. Resolution is a stretch maybe at best. Depends on the maturity of the participants.

 

Resolution on Level 4 won't happen as long as there are people who actually enjoy the game of Conflict.

 

Resolution on Level 5 gonna need a small miracle here

 

Resolution on Level 6 ain't never gonna happen people.

 

With all that being said, the forum can offer a lot of information on how-to, maybe an opinion or two on "how our troop does it" or some sort of moral support for someone's unfortunate situation, "Sorry to hear about that" kinda thing.

 

Resolving conflict? Well, often we don't know the full story so Level 1 is out of the picture, Level 2 keeps the thread alive for some time, Level 3 the big unknown is who are these people really, so we will settle for polite but forceful Level 4 Let the games begin! Level 5 amd 6 are people who drop off the forum rather quickly and quietly.

 

Stosh

[Scouter.]

I sincerely appreciate everyone's posting. Diversity and variance of thoughts and opinions helps me to be more open to those other thoughts and opinions.

 

My thoughts?

 

"Personally...there are times when I am really ok being more wrong than right in thinking something is possible".

 

Peace...S.

[Papadaddy]

On the other hand, caveat emptor, eh? When you come to an internet forum looking for free advice, from people you don't know, who are "experts" only because they claim to be, you get what you pay for, and should take it all with a grain of salt. As I tell colleagues in my professional life, "if you want an official policy decision, this is not the place." All we can do is offer opinions, based on the information provided.

[KC9DDI]

So, to tie this in back to the entertaining thread on light bulb changing in I&P:

 

1 forum member to tell us that the light bulb didn't actually burn out, it's been working fine all along

 

3 forum members to chastise us for daring to opine on how to change the light bulb that we all were told was actually burned out

 

(I keed, I keed)

[momof2cubs]

I don't know about the particular parent thread, but I know that in real life, parents are mighty quick to question and complain, but a lot less quick at volunteering their time to make a better program.

 

My standard answer to suggestions and ideas has become: "That's a great idea, you are in charge of it". And when it comes to a complain, I say, "Good point, what are YOU willing to do about it? Would you like a BSA application so we can get started?"

[packsaddle]

Momof2, I learned quickly to answer every complaint with an adult application in hand. Word gets out - keeps complaints to a minimum.

[johnponz]

I have to agree with Beav here (and I do not always agree with him). I believe that we quote regulations and the like way too much. A lot of times common sense needs to prevail. Remember we are running a Scout program not a law firm. This should not be a case of gotcha. Wait until your the leader who does something a little out of the ordinary trying to handle an unusual situation, and the wrath of the Philadelphia lawyers come down on you. Generaly, we are volunteer leaders trying to do the right thing in changing situations.

 

These reglations are written to "capture" child predators not to "capture" Scouters doing the right thing. I really believe our foirst reaction should be to assume a Brother Scouter is just trying to do the right thing until the facts really start showing that he/she is not.(This message has been edited by johnponz)