Color Guard Flag Position

[Tampa Turtle]

I think the belts are great ideas. I have a copy of the BSA flag book somewhere and thought it was a good general guide. For cubbies a lot of it is attitude; if they are respectful it is alright of not perfect. I tell them "if you mess up just smile, fake it, and make it look good. A common problem is getting the full size pole into the stand.

 

Like many things, practice, practice, practice. It is a good activity to do every meeting so everyone gets a few chances. Also fills time, We did it a lot including flag folding. We also folded some pretty big casket size flags--a team effort with Bears.

[Stosh]

The US Flag Code is for civilians and if one ever has a copy of it produced appropriately by a good source, the illustrations show the flags tilted forward when carried. To "dip" the flag is not to carry it tilted, it is to intentionally tip from vertical and back to show some sort of honor being offered. In the US, everyone is equal and the flag gets dipped to no one, not even the president.

 

Displayed on a wall with another flag, i.e. state flag, both flags are presented with cross staffs tilted one in each direction. The US flag on the left and the staff on top of the other flag.

 

Most people have never read the US Flag Code or any of it's evolutions over the years. It might do well to find out what IS written in it and what IS NOT written in it. I cringe every time I see the Troop coming down the street on Memorial Day. 3 flags in a line. The US Flag, the state flag and the troop flag, the US Flag on the right... The US Flag Code states if there are three flags, the US Flag goes out in front by itself and the other flags in a second row.

 

As I read posts such as these it always amazes me how much people know and don't know about the Code. The problem is not availability, it's on-line, the problem is people don't respect it enough to actually read what's there.

 

Stosh

[OldGreyEagle]

Stosh

 

I was reading your post and I had an almost epiphany, I think you can very much compare respect for the flag code to that of peoples attitudes towards the BSA uniform. There are plenty of resources on both yet people very much have no problem adopting a cavalier attitude mostly based on what has been done in the past or based on it really doesnt matter.

 

When its not important to do it right, it won't be

[Eagle92]

Yep NAVMC 2961 is the naval services manual for drill and ceremonies. One enterprising Sea Scout actually took that manual and edited it for Sea Scout use.

 

Also the BSHB has some good info on flag etiquette.

[Stosh]

OGE,

 

I'm thinking that there are a few on the forum who think I'm over avid about such issues, maybe even anal. But I don't care as much about what people think as I do about what people do. I spend a lot of time building what I call esprit-de-corps (same as Scout Spirit) amongst my boys. If I take it seriously, then they do too and reflect it back to others. I have seen PL's take the flag from one boy and give it to another because he was not in "full uniform". Does that reflect my opinion I have towards the flag or has he adopted it as well.

 

I have seen/heard PL's getting their boys ready for flags at the opening of the meeting doing uniform inspections so that all buttons are buttoned, neckers all under/over the collar, shirts tucked in and not bloused, etc. That Scout Spirit is infectious and the boys pick up on it.

 

My boys showed up for flags on the evening of the first day of a new summer camp after having set up tents, flies, stoves, etc. and worked all afternoon, in full uniform. They all looked the same, all uniformed and with walking staves. The troop flag and both patrol flags were present. Everyone else was in "class-b's". Only the staff and my boys were, in my opinion, ready for the flag retirement.

 

After the ceremony, they were "mobbed" by the staff wanting to know more about us. We were the only out-of-council troop that week and we stood out like a "sore thumb". The boys soaked up the accolades like sponges.

 

As the week progressed, more and more troops showed up in at least their uniform shirts. No other troop had full uniforms.

 

Well, when we went back the second year, we weren't the only troop in full uniform for flags. Scout Spirit is contagious!

 

When it comes to flags, no one in my troop ever took short-cuts, and none of the boys ever cared about what others thought. Only what they thought about flag/uniform respect counted.

 

Yes, respect for the flag and uniform does go hand-in-hand.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[CalicoPenn]

In my neck of the woods, when Scouts - Cub, Boy, Girl, etc. are doing a flag ceremony, the flag can be accidently dragged or dropped in a mud puddle and the color guard will still get huge applause.

 

I looked at a bunch of pictures of military color guards posted on the web. In many, the flags were held upright. In others, the US flag was upright, the service flag was tilted. In still others, the flags were held tilted, with the US flag at a shallower tilt than the other flags. It didn't matter which branch of the military, there was no 100% consistent method of doing it whether in the Army, Marines, Navy, Coast Guard, or Air Force. It also didn't matter if the color guard was standing still or marching.

 

The only real consistency was when the flag wasn't being held in the holder but held with staff end on the ground - then the flag was universally help fully upright. When flags were tilted, it was always when held in a holder.

 

One thing to remember as well, we have common practices when it comes to flag ceremonies - but they do change with time. 30 years or more ago, it would have been rare to find someone holding the US flag fully upright in a holder, either marching or standing.

[Stosh]

Calico,

 

Remember the US Flag Code is for civilians only. The military can do anything else it wishes with the flag according to their own protocol. Yes, it might be nice to take on military traditions that do not conflict with the US Flag Code like folding in a triangle. But the Code does not give any indication to a civilian on how to fold a flag. The military can also fly a religious flag OVER the US flag on board a naval vessel while religious services are being held. Try to get away with that one sometime at your local church, mosque or synagogue.

 

On the other hand if the military decides to reverse the flag on the right sleeve of their uniform to show that it is flowing backwards so be it, remember the US Flag Code for civilians are not instructed to follow suit.

 

You are correct that the Flag protocol has been modified many times since it originated back in the 1920's. The most current US Flag Code should be used.

 

The issue is how should civilians display the flag respectfully. At one point the government did not put US flags on postage stamps because it would desecrate it when it was cancelled. It could not be put on any clothing and was meant to always fly free. It explicitly states it should never be displayed horizontally or lying down. So why do people do it at sports events? Beats me, either it is ignorance of the Code or out and out disrespect. Every American can decide that for themselves.

 

Stosh

[CalicoPenn]

Stosh,

 

I was pretty much avoiding the flag code in this case since it doesn't really talk about how a civilian color guard should carry and hold a flag. I answered based on a belief that most people get their information on how things are "s'posed to be" from watching military color guards.

[Scoutfish]

Okay, I learned a bunch due to this thread.

 

But in your case, I would say: "As long as the scouts are being respectful, and trying to do a good job..let it be what it is.

 

The next time a random person tells you you are supposed to/not supposed to do [ fill in the blank ] , tell him to give you the Title, chapter, and article numbers to prove it.

[EagleScout02]

From someone who was in JROTC and in the Navy on the Honor Guard for both. The American Flag is always kept straight as others have stated. The reason for tilting of the other colors you would be using (Troop, State or other organization flag)is so the flag bearer can render a salute.

I know when I was doing ceremonies I would always you the flag belt holders. They are great and allow you to not bear all the weigh of the flag in your hands.

However, in any case if you are dealing with Cub Scouts or even younger Scouts nothing you would do would be fine. The BSA is not a military organization so if you want to do a ceremony one way you can. As long as you respect the US flag. If you have the flag bearers tilt their flags you should have the US Flag higher than the others.

For the information side all you are really going to find like stated by others is military handbooks on drill and ceremonies.

Good luck and hope this helps.

Its always a good thing of getting the Cubs expose to doing ceremonies because it will allow them to be more comfortable in front of large crowds which can help them in the long run.

 

Always remember to fight the good fight.

 

[Stosh]

 

As a reenactor who has had to carry a flag from the 1850's which as a battlefield marker was 4 times the size of most flags carried in parades today, keeping it upright was a real problem. Even with a holder, on a windy day, keeping oneself upright was a major accomplishment.

 

Stosh

[EagleScout02]

Sorry I notice after my post.

I meant to say that anything that the Cubs do would be fine. No one should be upset with them just trying to do the right thing.

Also, it is true hold up the flag is supper hard in windy situations.

[Stosh]

As Calico points out the US Flag Code is quite silent on the subject of carrying the flag. With that being said as civilians, one can carry it respectfully any way they wish.

 

One also has, in the final chapter, to remember that carrying the flag tilted is not the same as dipping the flag. Tilted is a position, dipping is a movement. Two entirely different animals to consider.

 

I have seen hundreds of flag ceremonies over the years and have seen only a handful that I didn't want to be part of and thus walked away from because of the lack of respect being shown. All of those were never on the Cub Scouting level.

 

Stosh

[Deaf Scouter]

I learned a lot too and just in time for the Memorial Day Parade!!

 

Definitely make sure there is 2 lines.. *smiles

 

Loved the link on the color guard commands as what I was finding just didn't seem right to me. Thought there was more being said.