First few outings for new troop?

[boomerscout]

We use Rubbermaid totes instead of plywood boxes -- easier for a four-man carry.

 

Actually, we want each Scout to carry some crew gear in their pack. We only bring the entire tote when at a camporee

[Kudu]

 

boomerscout writes:

 

"Actually, we want each Scout to carry some crew gear in their pack."

 

Likewise for "Cook Group Kits:" Each Scout carries his share in "Group Gear Bags" inside his own pack.

 

Rather than building plywood boxes, make bright orange Group Gear Bags.

 

Packing Group Gear is then mostly the same for Canoeing, Car Camping, and Backpacking (whether it is 300 feet or 30 miles).

 

In a Troop of 11-year-olds, consider limiting early backpack trips to 1/4 (a quarter) mile. Personal gear can be carried in those ill-fitting $10 yard-sale backpacks from the 1970s (add waist-belts).

 

The personal gear is emptied at the destination, with a second quarter-mile trip to pack in the Group Gear Bags.

 

Canoeing allows small Scouts to move heavy packs over longer distances.

 

The Lightweight "Cook Group" Method:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/cooking/lightweight.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

 

[KitCarson]

Kudu,

 

"The personal gear is emptied at the destination, with a second quarter-mile trip to pack in the Group Gear Bags. "

 

So, without containers, 300 feet is actually FORTY times harder than 15 feet. That's what I have been saying all along. Of course you can always drop the patrol equipment at the camp site via car.

 

 

 

boomerscout,

 

That's pretty much what I was saying, the only difference is in the box material. I favor plywood, because all of my outdoor experience has been at high altitudes in the southwest, and the intense sunlight and temperature extremes (cold as well as heat) eats up plastic, turning it brittle. I prefer hard containers over soft because they protect the contents during those long periods of storage better than a soft bag. Also, they can be stacked atop one another during storage, and locked. This is particularly important if your storage area is not the exclusive province of your troop.

 

I camp or have camped using both styles, both personally and as a scouter. My general camping gear is lightweight to the extreme -- a fly, hammock, bag, and insulating pad, with trangia burner and a couple of pots for cooking. However, when I do a primitive rendezvous, it's canvas, wood poles, charcoal brazier, and cast iron (500+ pounds of gear in all). I still prefer cast iron for cooking and usually include a tiny #3 or 4 cast iron frying pan in my lightweight gear.

 

This discussion is a classic example of the old say that "the truth is someplace in the middle". True lightweight gear is more fragile and more expensive. Old school gear tends to be more robust and is generally cheaper, partly due to the large amount of used equipment that one can find. Many troops, particularly those starting out, have to choose a course somewhere in the middle due to finances. However, gear purchased used, if well cared for, can often be resold a few years later at nearly its purchase price. Thus a troop is not fixed into any one style of camping. The important thing is to get a camping program started, using whatever equipment you can get your hands on.

[Kudu]

 

"So, without containers, 300 feet is actually FORTY times harder than 15 feet.

 

Plywood boxes will always require more trips than backpack "containers" because boxes are a fixed size.

 

"Of course you can always drop the patrol equipment at the camp site via car."

 

"Always," indeed!

 

As soon as a new Troop locks itself into heavy equipment, the adults will "always" think of camping in terms of automobile-accessible campsites.

 

"Always" with the pledge that they will spend more money for a second set of equipment for backpacking, but some day in the future "when the boys get older."

 

"Chuck Box Riddance" is the account of a Troop that got rid of their plywood boxes, and the usual "500+ pounds" of equipment that accompany them.

 

This is a middle way "container" approach that uses Rubbermaid totes, so "if they go backpacking pretty much all they have to do is dump the stuff out and divvy it up - it's essentially the same gear they use all the time."

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/lite/chuck_box.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[KitCarson]

"Plywood boxes will always require more trips than backpack "containers" because boxes are a fixed size. "

 

That's a generalization, not a fact. You are stuck on the concept of the traditional, stand up "chuck boxes" that doubles as a table and pantry. A smaller box intended strictly for storage and transportation of only the galley equipment is much more portable.

 

""Always" with the pledge that they will spend more money for a second set of equipment for backpacking, but some day in the future "when the boys get older.""

 

Even your zealot Grier admits that to be untrue. From his site:

"It's important to understand that in our case, it was the boys who made all the decisions to change from the "old way" to the "lightweight way" over the years. They decided to dump the chuck boxes, they decided to abandon big dining flies (well, actually, they just stopped using 'em), they chose to get rid of the propane gear. I submit that if it's not possible within a troop for the boys to experiment and to change he way the troop works, then we aren't really doing youth leadership, we're just faking it."

 

The key element here is "Boy-Led". The boys make the choice. Your "one size fits all" philosophy doesn't suit all boys, all troops, or all occasions any more than does the old school philosophy. Again, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

My first troop went through this same transition. We went from heavy canvas, wood fires, and cast iron to Gerry two-man backpacking tents and lightweight cookware and stoves for most outings, retaining the patrol-sized canvas tents and associated gear for camporees, other long-term camps, and extreme winter camps. Those big mil-surplus tents were much more suitable for winter snow camping than the two-man tents when the night time temperatures routinely fell to twenty below zero. They were warmer and safer, because there were more chances for other scouts to observe and aid a scout in difficulty.

 

 

[Kudu]

 

"You are stuck on the concept of...

 

"Even your zealot Grier admits...

 

"Your 'one size fits all' philosophy..."

 

Just a note to new leaders:

 

The reaction to moving your Troop away from plywood boxes, once established, can get surprisingly personal.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[KitCarson]

"The reaction to moving your Troop away from plywood boxes, once established, can get surprisingly personal. "

 

The reactions to facts that contradict a fanatic's particular view can become embarrassingly childish.

 

I'm old enough that I no longer waste my time on too-tall children.

[Tampa Turtle]

I LOVEEE the Plywood Patrol Boxes but it gets harder and harder to justify them unless we are doing "plop" camping. For a camporee or a base camp to return to they are fine but...

 

well this is a well traveled road. Sigh.

 

I know at our Troop it IS an emotional issue because of the effort put into planning and building them by some adults and their sons.

[JMHawkins]

Tampa,

 

No reason the Patrol Boxes couldn't be used to store a pair of Kudu's Cook Group Kits (KuduKits?). Then the folks who made them woulddn't need to feel bad, their creations are still being used. Heck, could still use the boxes dump camping, it's just that the Scouts are pulling Whisperlites and aluminum pots out intead of Green Coleman's and Dutch Ovens.

[dfscott]

Update:

 

After meeting with the Adults that will soon be the Troop Committee, I met some stiff resistance in some areas. Namely, "300 yards -- with no adults!" and "the poor SPL with no patrol to call home."

 

Since I don't expect to have more than 2 patrols at most, I've elected to forgo the SPL position for the time being. I plan to use a service patrol/program patrol rotation to run the meetings and I'll have an ASM to work in an advisory role to if needed.

 

For the former issue, I brought up Troop Guides, but we don't expect to have any experienced scouts. So, we'll start with ASMs serving as Troop Guides (and yes, I'll have to train and watch them well to keep them from being "den leaders"). Next year, when we get some experienced boys that have knowledge to teach, we'll put them in the Troop Guide positions.

 

The other thing I got hit with was "First Class First Year." Apparently, some of the adults have been reading and have gotten all excited about quick advancement (would you be surprised to know that most of our Troop Committee were former Pack Committee Members?). They are even talking about trying to get everyone to eagle in 4 years!

 

In the spirit of compromise, I've found some of the FCFY stuff but it looks like it really restricts what you can do when, particularly with respect to outings. Also, some of the things that are planned for a single Troop meeting look like they could be very time-consuming. I'm willing to give it a try, but based on some of the other threads on this forum, it definitely seems like a hotly debated topic, so I though I'd get some feedback from the group first.

 

[Kudu]

dfscott writes:

 

"I met some stiff resistance in some areas. Namely, '300 yards -- with no adults!'"

 

For what it's worth, Baden-Powell's minimum standard for the Patrol System is 150-300 feet, not yards

 

And that figure is based on experienced older boys (the ones with the best judgement and bearing) acting as Patrol Leaders.

 

In Troops of 10 and 11-year-olds, I start with the Patrols camped about 50 feet apart, with adult advisers stepping in as needed.

 

Remember that when Scouting was popular with adventure-craving boys, the purpose of a Patrol was to go out on patrol. Advancement is done on individual (separate) Patrol Hikes (not as a whole Troop), in this case with an ASM teaching (rather than the Patrol Leader).

 

Avoid electing Patrol Leaders for as long as humanly possible.

 

With the Patrols 50 feet apart, adults are far enough away for the natural leaders to emerge as needed, but close enough to be able to observe that process evolve. You can call attention to each Patrol's ability to solve camping problems (site selection or hike map & compass, for instance) by asking whom you believe to be the natural leaders for their opinions in front of the other Patrol members, and seeing who agrees and disagrees.

 

Expecting a Patrol Leader to resolve conflicts between boys much before 13 years of age is a curse. Be careful.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

[dfscott]

>> For what it's worth, Baden-Powell's minimum standard for the Patrol System is 150-300 feet, not yards

 

Oops, Kudu, that was a typo on my part. I told them "football field field distance is recommended." Probably not a good analogy since that implies a loooong distance.

 

I really think the main issue is the "boys in their own tents without parents," and this is because of some recent history in our area. To make a long story short, we used to have a troop in our area (2 years ago) and during a campout, there was some inappropriate behavior by some of the older boys towards the a couple of new crossovers. The result was that the two crossovers left scouting completely (a real shame since one of them was a standout cub) and two older scouts got banned from scouts. The drama caused the troop to collapse and left everyone extremely gun-shy.

 

I like your idea of keeping the distance short and slowing increasing it.

 

>> Avoid electing Patrol Leaders for as long as humanly possible.

 

You surprised me with this one. Do you suggest letting a Troop Guide and/or dedicated ASM lead them until they get older? Or are you talking about simply giving them a few weeks? months? to learn the ropes, internalize ILST, etc. before elections? Or do they just run as a group with direction (as needed) from adult leaders?

 

[boomerscout]

our new Scout patrols are adult-led until the Scouts age out by earning T'foot.

While first class first year is possible, it means any games at troop meeetings need to have a scoutcraft focus: fire building contest (where allowed), knot tying relays, compass course in nearby park, etc. instead of basketball, soccer or tag.

After each patrol has chosen their campsite and set up is the time to discuss what makes a good campsite. They did have time to read this part of the Handbook beforehand, but sometimes learn by doing is more effective. After the initial chat, everyone then visits each site and critiques it. Yes, some patrols will then need to strike their tents and move to a better site.

[KitCarson]

"No reason the Patrol Boxes couldn't be used to store a pair of Kudu's Cook Group Kits (KuduKits?). Then the folks who made them woulddn't need to feel bad, their creations are still being used. Heck, could still use the boxes dump camping, it's just that the Scouts are pulling Whisperlites and aluminum pots out intead of Green Coleman's and Dutch Ovens."

 

Exactly.

 

Here's another question. How do you store your troop and patrol camping equipment between treks? Do you have a dedicated SECURE area, or is it an area accessable to multiple groups? If the latter, you need secure storage containers of some sort for your gear lest it grow legs and wander off. You can build/purchase fixed lockers or else lockable boxes that can do double duty as drop boxes.

[Kudu]

 

>> Avoid electing Patrol Leaders for as long as humanly possible.

 

dfscott writes:

 

"You surprised me with this one."

 

Some of us think of the term "Patrol Leader" as the equivalent to "BSA Lifeguard," a position of significant responsibility: A mature older boy whose judgement and bearing you can trust (when you aren't there) to keep the others from causing destruction or getting injured.

 

Modern Scouting is in such a rush to have Webelos crossovers take turns at "being the Patrol Leader," but would we likewise encourage the little non-swimmers to pretend to be "BSA Lifeguards," just to learn through "controlled failure" about abstract things like "democracy" and "leadership skills"?

 

Every group is different, but I find in young Troops of ten and eleven-year-olds, as soon as you sew a "Patrol Leader" patch on even the very best little leader, jealousy, arguments, and burn-out begins.

 

You reap what you sew, so to speak

 

dfscott writes:

 

"I told them 'football field field distance is recommended.'"

 

That's how I explain it to older Scouts: "Camp your Patrols a football field apart."

 

dfscott writes:

 

"Do you suggest letting a Troop Guide..."

 

If you do find a couple of mature older Scouts to act as Troop Guides, make them Patrol Leaders instead!

 

dfscott writes:

 

"and/or dedicated ASM lead them until they get older? ...just run as a group with direction (as needed) from adult leaders?"

 

Yes, "as needed."

 

When you get the Patrols separated 50 feet, have the adult ask the group for advice on how to solve each hands-on (practical) camping problem. The natural leaders will emerge.

 

Always think in terms of tasks with a very limited duration, led by the Scout or Scouts with the best idea at that particular moment in time.

 

If the adults handle the personality conflicts (that young boys would otherwise solve with their fists), a Patrol of eleven-year-old Scouts can (with the right guided questions) solve by consensus any practical camping problem.

 

Likewise for always working on advancement on individual (separate) Patrol Hikes at monthly campouts. Hikes can be short, a mile maybe, but to a worthwhile location. Food should figure large, maybe a primitive cooked meal (hot dogs on a stick), depending on time considerations.

 

Green Bar Bill said that "A Hike is a walk with a purpose." For the general idea, see his "Theme Hikes" at the following URL:

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/hikes/index.htm

 

Oh, and don't forget to pit the Patrols against each other with evening Wide Games!

 

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/wide/index.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu