Sheath Knives in Scouting

[TAHAWK]

Bans seem to originate mostly with folks who are not very knowledgeable on the subject matter.

 

So some guys in suits ban "sheath knives" and leave Scouts to handle the large BSA utility and boning knives (AKA "Sticker") in the conditions of a typical council camp campsite (crowded) while removing all official training on fixed-blade knives.

 

No to mention 4" folding "tantos" made by "CHINA" (optimized as weapons) but AOK because they fold (often on the user's hand).

 

In the same manner, telescoping stocks were banned as EVIL by federal law, but folding stocks were AOK. 0___0

Flash suppressors were banned as EVIL but compensators were AOK (the better to execute rapid fire?). =___=

 

If you are afraid of a thing about which you are relatively clueless, the terms of your rules may be a tad irrational - like your fear.

 

Nuts.

 

Just stop blaming "national."(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

[TAHAWK]

double(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

[Eamonn]

When I first became a Boy Scout back home in England before the word boy was taken away. We were allowed to wear a sheath knife as part of our uniform.

Sadly some Boy Scouts were mugged and lost their knives to the muggers and the order came from above that knives as part of the uniform were no longer allowed.

I thought I looked very dashing with my knife strapped to my side.

Oh well! It's a good job that I have very sexy knees.

Ea.

[TAHAWK]

And elbows?

[Stosh]

By the way sheaths for pencils are more properly called pocket protectors and are far too geeky for the dashing young scout to be wearing.

 

The belt axe/sheath knife combo once sold by the BSA is a tremendous outdoor tool. I prefer the belt axe over the hand axe any day because the handle is so much shorter and easier to control. For fire fuel preparation nothing beats a hand axe. Pocket knives are too small and bow saws to dangerous. I can produce more tinder if a few minutes that would take a scout with a pocket knife a half hour. Opening up wood to expose dry inner core takes but a couple of sharp strikes and is impossible with pocket knife and/or saw. Just haven't found a suitable substitute than the old belt axe.

 

Because it's BSA equipment, no one has ever questioned my use of it at any scout camp, but when I am doing a non-scout campout, I carry a lighter version of it to save on the weight issue.

 

Do I let boys use it? Sure, but only after they are well trained and "threatened to within an inch of their lives" if ever caught abusing the privilege of borrowing it. The belt axe is sharpened to knife sharpness which is very dangerous, but extremely effective.

 

I have never canoed/kayaked without the belt axe. Nothing cuts through boat lines quicker and nothing can produce a warming fire quicker on a cold day than a such a tool. And if I roll my canoe and get tangled, it's handier than digging in my pocket for a pocket knife.

 

Sorry, after 50 years, I'm not going to settle for second best.

 

Stosh

[TAHAWK]

Stosh, we seem to be "divided by a common language."

 

The axe in the Kit Carson Kit (BSA Nos. 1079 and 1080) is the standard B.S.A. hand axe ("Official Scout Axe").

 

There is a smaller B.S.A. hand axe made by Plumb in the 1930's and into WW II, the "Voyager" (11"; 1.375 lbs; originally made for the Girl Scouts), but it was not part of the Kit Karson Kt and would fit loosely in the axe cover portion. HAndle little thing but had to find these days.

 

While the risk presented by saws is frequently underestimated, do you regard the now-more-common folding pruning saw as more dangerous than the axe that you favor?

 

To split wood up to baseball bat size with a saw:

 

1. saw half through the diameter of the length of wood as if making two lengths.

2. grasp the length of wood with the cut on the bottom side.

3. strike the length of wood against a hard object (rock; hard ground) with the saw cut on the side being stuck and the impact towards the end you are not holding.

 

The cut acts as a stress-riser and the length of wood tends to split lengthways. Not 100% but usually. Useless with elm, but elm doesn't want to split "no way."

[Eagle732]

Sheath knives are banned in our troop. No one has ever questioned why, it's just excepted as fact.

[TAHAWK]

And no right-thinking person would ever crack a boiled egg on the large end.

[Stosh]

I'll have to give that a try on the splitting.

 

I would position the folding saw in the category of a large serrated buck knife. They are nice for small things, but tend to take forever in that the blade is quite short. Each stroke is only about 6-8" at best. With a lot of boys with extra energy and elbow grease, it works nicely, but for the individualist, it's more of a survival saw and the cable saw is far more compact and safer in the long run.

 

I carry the cable saw for specialty work and with two rings, it keeps both hands occupied, it keeps the fingers out of the way but is very slow going as compared to a bow saw.

 

I used to have a folding saw that was basically a triangular bow saw that the blade folded up onto the handle thingy after detaching from the end. I don't know how many times I cut myself on that stupid thing before it hit the trash can. Fitted nicely into backpack, but wasn't worth the cost of bandaids.

 

For troops and councils that ban the sheath knife, that's all well and good, but the same safety training used in the kitchen with the butcher knives/filet knives, it shouldn't be a big deal except for supervision purposes. I would challenge any troop/patrol to see how well they keep a safety circle when they are cutting up carrots and potatoes for stew. I'm sure I would rather have a sheathed knife on a boys belt in the woods before I would have a razor sharp filet knife doing the potatoes in camp with all the other boys looking over his shoulder. 95% of the knife injuries I have seen in 40 years of working with youth have all been in the kitchen area. The other 5% were boys screwing around and would have cut themselves on any knife whether it folded up, locked or fixed. The only other cuts I experienced were with saws and one boy didn't believe me when I said my belt axe was razor sharp. He cut himself taking it out of the sheath.

 

Stosh

[frankpalazzi]

Sheath knives are banned in our troop, but per order of the CO. They define a sheath knife as "any knife that doesn't fold". Of course that excludes scissors, eating utensils, etc. (Common sense prevails) I believe the reasons are safety, and the wacky jurisdictional variances here in Massachusetts.

[TAHAWK]

"Safety": The last BSA national camp accident summary I saw was a few years ago, but I doubt it has changed. The most common "woods tools" accident was "knife closed on fingers." Not sure where kitchen knives fit in that picture. The most severe woods tools accidents were from axes.

 

A lock blade locked open is no more safe - or unsafe -- than a fixed blade knife.

 

Unsafe sheaths are an avoidable issue, but sheaths are, of course, not an issue with a folding knife - that stays securely closed. Cheap CHINA knives, lacking detentes to keep them closed, do open in pockets. A study belt pouch is in order for such knives (but may exceed the cost of the knife).

[RichardB]

Do we need a national policy that says use the right tool for the job at hand?

 

Richard

 

PS: I live the knife ads that pop up on Scouter.com.

[Twocubdad]

I was teaching at NATIONAL Camp School held at a private, non-scout facility and was wearing a sheath knife as a prop for a session I was teaching. The regional executive responsible for the school approached me and asked me to put the knife away. His reasoning: that SOME councils banned them (apparently someone had complained.) I noted that sheath knives are allowed under the G2SS which holds we should use the best tool for the job.

 

His response: "Yeah, but some council camps ban them."

 

Sheesh. So much for national policy.

[ScoutBox]

I have done a lot of looking into this. I was asked last year about this question.

 

Although Sheath knives are legal, and to my opinion, better in the woods. We have disallowed the use in the Troop. Along with any lock blade knives. The lock blade issue is Federal Law in Switzerland. So that one's a no brainer. The fixed blade knives was a committee decision.

[TAHAWK]

Box,

 

Cultures really differ. I always wondered about a ban on lock-blades when so many had SIG 550's in the home, many fully-automatic (an actual "assault rifle").

 

Where I live, possession of a a fully-automatic version of the 550 in the home or anywhere would be a serious crime except for a very few holders of a special federal permit. No law prohibits possessing large knives --- or sword,s pikes, or crossbows. So we are ready for Charles the Bold. ^___^ (For historic reasons, Ohio, like many states, has an unenforced ban on possessing the "bowie knife." They are made, advertised, and sold in Ohio.)

 

In El Salvador, a machete is pretty standard equipment for a Scout outing in the bush - simply the right tool, political correctness aside.

 

Keep asking: "How do we fulfill out duty under the Guide to Safe Scouting to teach Scouts how to safely use all legally owned woods tools if we ban the preeminent woods tool (according to Boy's Life and every other expert) - the fixed-blade knife?