Relative Prestige of Adult Cub Scout vs Boy Scout Leaders

[Basementdweller]

Scout shows.....

 

 

Now I have never attended one of these.......If someone is putting on one of these let me know I would like to attend and see what it is about........

 

PM me the info.....I will send ya money for a few tickets...If you could recommend a nice camping spot that would be great too.

 

 

Driving distance.....Lets just say east of the Mississippi river......

[momof2cubs]

Not to beat a dead horse, but right this minute in these very forums on an active thread about getting new ASMs involved there has already been a condescending attitude towards cub leaders.

 

If we took the time and trained and learned how to lead a pack, a den, a committee, why do troops assume that we will come in and transform the troop into a Web III den? Why not give the benefit of the doubt and assume that these leaders will take the training and learn how assist a troop?

 

Honestly I am surprise that troops get anyone at all to help with leadership if this is how they treat the "freshmen" parents/former cub leaders.

[DLChris71]

To be fair to that thread I don't think that it is a matter of did CS Leaders go out and get the training, put in the time, and effort. It's seems to me more of a matter that in cub scouts the program is geared heavily into family interaction. That is until Webelos a parent is interacting with their child and grading them on the standard of "do your best". At Webelos the program transitions to the parent as a coach/mentor and requirements are signed off by a WDL or assistant. In these situations though the program is still family oriented and the WDL will hopefully been with the same group of scouts for a few years and be on pretty friendly terms. After all on most cub outings a parent is usually present, such as service projects, spring camps, etc.

 

But in boy scouts the standard is that the boy can demonstrate proficiency to a neutral (though hopefully benevolent) grader and not someone who is necessarily a family member or family friend. So the standard is higher for the boy.

 

Well a parent that crosses over with their son does need to be acclimated to this new relationship with the boys that they will serve. They will usually have gone from a situation where they possibly led out of sense of self interest, that their son should have a proper shake in the program, to a more subtle form of leadership and interaction. A situation where instead of blurting out an answer or nudging them for a result during a class for the boys to stepping back and allowing their boy to actually fail.

 

In a pack (or my pack) what is the standard for a boy to pass a requirement? One or possibly two times of demonstrating the correct skill?

 

So given that this is the world that a CS Leader works in, I don't fault a Troop for wanting to ease them into a leadership role in a Troop.

[Jeffrey H]

"Jeff, I think it has less to do with a failure to recognize the part Cub Scouts play and the involvement required, but rather that some Boy Scout leaders see Cub Scout leaders intentionally or inadvertently turning Boy Scouts into Webelos III. "

If Troop leadership allows their program to be influenced by cub scout methods, then that is the fault of Troop leadership, not the fault of incoming parents.  Troop leadership should be requiring new adults to be trained in the methods of running a healthy troop program (patrol method, boy-run).  Strong troop leadership with a strong troop committee that understands how a Troop should function will shut-down any intentional attempts to turn a Troop into a "Webelos III." 

[Basementdweller]

Jeff

 

we don't know your situation or experience level....

 

Have you ever dealt with meddling parents??????? Had a mom walk on the PL running his Patrol meeting when they were deciding their menu.......the CC escorted her from the room. Which led to a heated conversation in the hall.......

 

I know of a Gentleman who teaches SM fundamentals and IOLS....He preaches boy lead, PLS and such......But the reality is he runs a Webelos 3 Troop. By his very nature he cannot let the boys lead.

 

My point......Training is irrelevant.

[Eagle92]

Mom,

 

If you think I am denigrating CS leaders, please se my post over there. That is hardly the case. Rather I am trying to focus on the differences between the programs, and how hard it can be for a leader to make the transfer. My post on the other thread goes into details.

 

Jeff,

 

Sometimes it's not that easy to resist. There was a troop locally that has struggled in keeping leaders. They either move with their jobs, move on to Venturing, or are in name only. The SM was the one who held it together, and while initially did more that an SM is suppose to do according to today's literature, if you look at Green Bar Bill's 3rd ed. SMHB, he followed that, but it took sometime for the troop to get their "culture." Not only did he lose leaders, some parents wanted leaders with a more hands on approach, and they would leave for troops that were more adult led. He finally got to the point where the Scouts are running the troop. Best evidence of that is the 18yo who just celebrated his Eagle COH this past weekend, and already has his ASM patch and plans on being active and giving back as long as he is in town.

 

BUT there was an influx of new Webelos into the troop last year, and there was another batch last month. And with those Webelos, came their parents. The Scouts who he has trained and worked with are outnumbered, and I am slowly seeing their influence eroded by the parents. Worse, the SM stepped down for family reasons, and the new SM was the CM 18 a year ago. While an ASM still, he doesn't have the influence he once had.

 

My concern for that troop is that it will turn from the most scout-run, PM following troop in the district, to a troop just like the others. And the entire reason I had my son visit the pack first was A) the pack was active, and B) the pack fed into this troop. I hope and pray that the parents, who are now committee members, ASMs, and SMs, will see how it is suppose to be run. There is hope b/c the new SM and and one of the new ASMs have been mentored by the old SM, in addiion to a few of the MCs.

[momof2cubs]

I'll grant you that it is a very different experience. We spend 5 long years drilling into their skulls that cub scouting is a family activity and that BSA does not, in fact, stand for Baby Sitters of America. Then lo and behold, they cross over and we have to start drilling into their skulls that it is boy-led, at 300 ft, etc, etc, etc.

 

But still..if you have a frosty attitude (even if it based on past experience) towards freshmen parents at a troop and discourage them from becoming involved in troop leadership, do not be surprised if 5-10 years from now when current leadership ages out, you have no one to run the troop.

 

While I enjoy volunteering, I certainly do enjoy staying at home during troop meetings and not having to sleep on the dirt on camping weekends. In other words, you probably won't have to tell parents twice to not get involved. Even if you do mean it just the 1st year.

[Jeffrey H]

Jeff we don't know your situation or experience level.... Have you ever dealt with meddling parents??????? Had a mom walk on the PL running his Patrol meeting when they were deciding their menu.......the CC escorted her from the room. Which led to a heated conversation in the hall....... I know of a Gentleman who teaches SM fundamentals and IOLS....He preaches boy lead, PLS and such......But the reality is he runs a Webelos 3 Troop. By his very nature he cannot let the boys lead. My point......Training is irrelevant.

 

My experience:  3 years ACM, 2 years ASM, 1 year CM (currently serving).

The troop I served never experienced what you went through because we did not not allow meddling parents.  Parameters for parents and prospective leaders were set up front.  The training I was referring to is practical "hands on" training with immediate Troop leadership, not SM fundamentals and IOLS.

[Tampa Turtle]

Mom brings up a good point.

 

I recently skipped a few campouts and...IT WAS GREAT! So she is correct in that if you break that continuity you will lose some keepers...

[Jeffrey H]

Proposal: Let's shut down Cub Scouts since there is a prevailing fear in this forum that Cubbing ruins Boy Scout Troops.

 

Pros: 1) Scouting will be fresh, new, and exciting for 11 year olds and could keep them in the program longer. 2) No tired cub scouts and burned-out parents will come to your Troop after 3 to 5 years of cub scouting. 3) No de-programming of former Cubmasters meddling around with idea of "adult-run." 4) Eliminates Webelos that camped "too much" and will not be impressed with your Troop's camping program. 4) I can go ahead and resign as Cubmaster and take a break.

 

Cons: 1) No Scouting program for younger boys that teaches citizenship and character development. 2) No development of age-appropriate scouting outdoor skills. 3) Taking the fun away for many adult leaders. 4) Removing more than half of the total BSA membership from it's rolls. Depending on your point of view, that could be a "Pro."

 

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Con) My boy joined cub scouts because he was too young for boy scouts. By the time he was old enough for boy scouts no doubt we would have been embroiled in soccer, football, whatever instead.

[momof2cubs]

Con: the boy scout program will fold within 5 to 8 years.

 

Honestly..how many boy scouts do you get that did NOT come from a pack? My guess is that in any given troop it would be between 1% and 5%.

 

Like Tampa said..most boys by that time have come up with other things to do with their time.

[packsaddle]

In my view, Cub Scouts is THE most important program in BSA. It has the capability to contribute directly or indirectly to the growth of BSA in many ways. It can reach far more boys who are far more interested in the program at that age - and if so engaged, are far more likely to continue to Boy Scouts. There are more engaged parents, more enthusiasm in the boys, better attitudes, and a lot more fun (at least from the boys' perspective). Everything is new and fresh and full of adventure.

 

BSA does seem to turn a neglectful eye toward Cub Scouting and I too am mystified as to why the above fundamental truth is not as obvious as the adipose tissue sagging from the Chief's double chin.

The future of Boy Scouts and BSA is no further and no more complicated than those roundups for new Tigers and Wolves.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Packsaddle,

 

 

As a district Membership Chair, my experience supports your conclusions completely, and it's surely why most recruiting done by district executives is aimed at Cub Scouts.

 

 

However, motivated Scout Troops with good programs CAN and SHOULD be devising effective ways to recruit new non Cub Scouts, and this can be done in my experience.

 

The most efficient method in my experience is to schedule a Cub and Boy Scout Recruiting night at the same or similar times. When recruiting Cub Scouts I visit elementary schools during lunch to invite boys to the Cub Scout recruiting night.

 

It's a small additional effort to talk to 5th graders in the spring time and invite them to a Boy Scout recruiting night held at the same or a similar time and place. 5th graders are ready for Boy Scouts and getting involved for spring and summer activities and summer camp is a great and attractive program.

 

Unfortunately, I find few troops willing to do that. They have mostly given up in my experience. I have repeatedly invited troops to do that and get few responses.

 

Very, very sad.

[JMHawkins]

Honestly..how many boy scouts do you get that did NOT come from a pack? My guess is that in any given troop it would be between 1% and 5%.

 

Well, if the given troop happened to be the one I'm with, it would be 60%. 19 of our 32 Scouts were NOT Cub Scouts. But then we take recruiting from the community seriously.

 

So, back to Jeffrey H's pros and cons post: Pro) maybe without Webelos crossovers, Troops would be more motivated to actually get out and recruit Boy Scout aged boys instead of relying on the Cub Scout program for all of their new members.

 

 

Now, I don't think we should do away with Cub Scouts, but on the other hand, I do think Boy Scouts is the most valuable program BSA offers. Cub Scouts is a great program, but Boy Scouts is indespensible in our current society. Boys that age are at a critical point in their development and our society doesn't provide them enough opportunities for growth, responsibilty, and citizenship.

 

But why do the programs have to be at loggerheads anyway? Both are valuable, both do good. The whole talk about prestige is totally misplaced.

 

What I see, reading between the lines, is three things. One, some Troops have a bunch of stick-in-the-muds set in their ways who are dismissive of the new crossover parents because they haven't been around and the Old Guard doesn't know their abilities. Two, some Cub Scout parents are pushy know-it-alls who, because they haven't been around the existing Troop leadership, dismiss those years of experience running a program for older boys and get their polypropylenes in a bunch when they don't get to step immediately into a leadership role with their son's new Troop.

 

And three? Three, there are a bunch of folks who appreciate the time and effort the other volunteers put in, and who check their own egos at the door and make a big effort to get along with and work well with the other adults in the Troop, new or old.