Relative Prestige of Adult Cub Scout vs Boy Scout Leaders

[SeattlePioneer]

From the Jambo 2012 REJECTED thread:

 

 

 

[momof2cubs]

I don't know about prestige, but for sure there is a certain...red-headed step-child feeling to cub scouting amongst the BSA volunteers. Like a pecking order maybe?

 

I have experienced a lot of put downs from boy scouts leaders, specially since my son crossed over that my work in the pack is not ever remotely comparable to volunteering in a troop.

[qwazse]

Cub leaders definitely have the warmest spot in my heart! When it comes to the little Gompers, I'm like a grandparent I'll wind them up, but hand them off before they wear me down.

 

Unless you had a boy-led den where you advised the Denner on planning a program, assigning one boy to get the supplies, another to teach the craft, another for opening, cleanup, etc ... While you sat back and drank your coffee, then your work as a cub leader definitely does not compare to a Boy Scout or Venturing leader. In some ways it's much more demanding.

 

The hard part in scouting is getting the right people the right jobs at the right time. M2C, you have no idea how I wish former cub moms would be willing to come camping with my crew. Right now, I am trying to line up chaperones for two upcoming hiking weekends; otherwise it's a no-go for a couple of young women.

[Eagle92]

Mom,

 

The red-headed step child of Scouts are the Sea Scouts, not Cub Scouts.

 

All,

 

I know that every council is different so situations vary, except Sea Scouts being the redheaded step child

 

In my neck of the wood, folks tend to give more respect, prestige, etc to the Boy Scout and Venturing leaders than to the Cub Scout leaders. My district committee has only 2 CS leaders on the committee, and has had only one, for as long as I can remember. There is only 1 Cub overnite event on the district level, and that is for Webelos as a result. 90% of the discussions at that level focus on Boy Scouts and Venturers, unless it's CSDC, and I the one bringing it up.

 

Council is just the same, I can think of only one person who is a Cub Scout leader on the council level, but there may be more. In fact there is a widespread attitude that ' Cubs don't need to camp," and this is from someone who SHOULD know better being a 4 beader and involved in the OA. At a district training workshop, I was told I was wrong about camperships being available to Cubs, until I pulled out the council campership form. The OA camperships are not available to Cubs, but the other one is.

 

When we planned the Centennial celebration, Cub were initially left out of it. The idea and planning for Cubs was very last minute IMHO, some arrangements were not geared towards Cub packs (TPTB expected packs to camp in neat little rows of identical tents just like some BS troops using jambo specs), some vol staff were not happy with Cubs being involved (some staff refused to do anything with Cub events including help setting up), and there was some resentment of Cubs being in involved. This was in spite of Packs having more folks at the event than the Troops and Crews combined.

 

Good news was the organizer who pushed the Cub participation did a great job; we had Boy Scouts trying to do Cub activities. All the Cubs I know had a good time and the complaint I heard was that there was too much to do

 

I think some reasons for this attitude in my council stem from the following:

 

1) Historically Cubs didn't do much camping and as I discovered things change VERY slowly in my neck of the woods. let's face it, Cubs have been doing more camping for how long? District/council level family camps have been had national standard for them for how long, and we have only had them in the past 3 years in my council.

 

2) Most CS leaders are brand new with little to no experience in the program. That leads to A) experienced leaders not knowing them well B)Some leaders not taking them seriously and C) The new leaders are more focused on learning their jobs and doing well with the dens.

 

3) You do run into groups like Base has run into, i.e. if you don't have beads, lodge flap, knots, age, whatever, then you don't know what you are talking about. I ran into those situations when I became an OA chapter adviser at 21, first became a DE (I was right out of college and again "youthfulness" was a factor as I refused to tell anyone my age), and when I put on blue loops for the first time in 20+ years and I put on the lodge's new, non-honor specific border, and did some training on the council level.

 

Now I do think that will slowly change now. Part of it is WB21C. Whatever your feelings on it, and I do have some concerns about it, by allowing CS leaders to interact with BS and Venturing leaders, this is making small inroads. Heck one of my good CS friends just served on staff, and knowing her she has made a very good impression on older leaders on staff with the attitude, and probably showed them a thing or two.

 

[Basementdweller]

Prestige......vanity, ego, lust, power

 

 

It is hard for long time scouters to go to roundtable and have an energetic stay at home mom den leader come to round table and tell them the way it is going to be at the Boy Scout Camporee next month.......

 

OR

 

A District wide email comes out and Stay at home cub mom spell and gramar corrects it and replys to all.

 

Why does it matter??????

 

Egos.

 

 

It is my opinion that MOST cub leaders have not earned the right to attend things like the Jamboree. We had 100 adults apply for 20 positions. It simply isn't right or proper to over look Boy Scout leaders who have 4 or 5 years of Boy Scout experience for a Cub Leader that has 1 or 2 with cub scouts......The roles are/should be different.

 

 

Far as WB21 goes..... There is NO training in the world that will replace real chewing the dirt experience.

 

Wolf mom with 2 years experience and taking WB21c does not trump, SM with 10 years exp and old course WB.

 

 

Seattle I think prestige is the wrong word, Maybe respect, experience, knowledge might be better.

[momof2cubs]

Eagle, that could be... I think we may have maybe 1 crew in our district, out of like 80 units. Of course, we are a land-locked district, maybe that has an impact?

 

All the things you list are probably true. However, it seems shortsighted and mean. After all, these men and women are putting just as much time, effort, talent, and probably money to dedicate to young boys. Why make them feel like their contribution is just not as important? And the reason cub scouts may not camp much is because BSA's YPT makes it near impossible. Cub camping requires an adult for every child. Who can take a weekend out of every month to go camping with their son?

 

I have told this story in the forums before, but it is relevant to this topic.

 

Last Spring, I took BALOO training. The training was headed by seasoned boy scout volunteers. When we got to the equipment section, the gloves came off with these guys. He held up one of those puffy, sleep-over types of sleeping bags and said" "THIS is what I took camping when my son was in Cub Scouts". Then he held one of those REI-fits-in-the-palm-of-your-hand-and-weights-0.000005oz types of sleeping bags and said: "THIS is what I take now when we go Boy Scout camping". Guffaws ensued. He did that with EVERY SINGLE piece of equipment he was showing. And laughter afterwards. All that was missing was the pointing and laughing at us poor naive cub scout leaders.

 

I think that story is VERY indicative of how boy scout leaders feel about us. Like we are not "real" leaders and cub scouting is not "really" scouting.

 

And do not even get me started with centennial celebrations. We weren't invited to SINGLE ONE. Because in their words, cub scouting didn't come till later, so it wasn't really "our" anniversary.

[perdidochas]

I think it's mainly a matter of longevity. Most Cub Scout leaders (yes, there are exceptions) are only Cub Scout leaders for as long as they have boys in the program. That's 4 1/2 yrs. I've noticed that more Boy Scout leaders stay on after their boys age out, and the ones in it just with their own sons, have almost 7 yrs.

 

Personally, I feel that many of the professional Scouters (and the higher up, the more they have this attitude) treat most volunteer leaders poorly, the exception being the district level scouters (i.e. the lowest rank, most of whom in my area are fresh out of college). We have one of the higher ups locally that is extremely rude to the volunteers. If I weren't so dedicated to my sons and the other boys, I would have told him to shove it, and quit. There is no reason for that, and it makes me hesitant to want to help out beyond the unit level.

[OldGreyEagle]

There is almost a palpable disdain that flows from some of the posters on this forum concerning Cub Scout leaders and their program. Certainly not always scoutlike but it is real and its there. When you consider the percentage of Boy Scouts who were Cub Scouts, it makes one wonder why the foundatin of the supply chain is so lowly regarded.

 

Cubbers, if I have never said it before, Thank You for all you do in introducing the boys to the world of scouting. Your efforts are the reason there are Boy Scouts'

 

I had thought we were all scouters, working in the area that held the most interest for us, some at Packs, Troops, Crew, Ship, etc. I never thought anyone was "better" than anyone else.

[packsaddle]

This is coming from someone who has resisted authority his entire life, consistently rebelled against the status quo, enjoys provoking students into ways of thinking that are new to them, has given up on ever 'fitting in' with social cliques, and who will now quote from Rick Santorum with tongue in cheek:

When I hear superficial concepts like 'prestige' discussed as if they are somehow important (especially when applied to BSA leadership positions), "That makes me throw up."

C'mon, why should anyone care about this kind of nonsense? If we enjoy working with the cubs that's all we really need. All that social nonsense is just a distraction.

 

Edited to add: And I've consistently maintained that I'd take the cubs over the boys any day. I really enjoyed the cubs and I'd do it again if I ever got the chance (and with grandchildren now that time is just a few years away...WOOHOO!)(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Tampa Turtle]

I loved doing the cub thing and would consider doing Tigers again when I retire...if they do not think me a creepy old man.

 

Cubs keep you young and they are so darn cute. I get more excited greetings from my former cubbies than any scouts I know. I seem to stand taller.

 

I think a lot of Boy Scouters do look down at Cub leaders just like teachers look at the early grade teachers as glorified baby sitters. It is not right. It was harder work than boy scouts in many ways--every week was a production. Boy Scouts is more complicated with all its rules and has its physical demands but no where the meeting responsibilities IMHO.

 

So Den Leaders remember what one of my trainers told me:

 

"We never know what the future holds for these boys. Some will grow up to be doctors some criminals. Some have miserable secret home-lives, be a or may not live to adulthood. Remember cub-scouts may be the happy bright spot in their childhood. You make that happen. So be patient and remember that they are little boys"

 

When you step back and look at the big picture Cub Scouts is really important.

[Stosh]

I think it might have something to do with the various councils. I have held Cub, Boy Scout, and Venturing positions each over 10 years and haven't noticed the difference in how one is treated. I get more hassle out of the council personnel than I do the other volunteers.

 

Stosh

[Basementdweller]

OGE.....I am still a cub leader.

 

 

I understand that even with my tenure I am still a relative nobo to the adult scouting world.

 

 

[emb021]

"The red-headed step child of Scouts are the Sea Scouts, not Cub Scouts. "

 

true in many places. And Venturing is usually close behind them.

 

Most places, the Boy Scout leaders are treated best, then Cub Scout leaders. Venturing leaders are a very distant third, with Sea Scout leaders lumped in with them, or behind them.

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Mom,

 

If it seems like I am being mean or not taking CSs leaders seriously, that is not the case at all. Just stating how things are in my neck of the woods: the Cub leaders do NOT get respect from some long term volunteers. And I think it's wrong.

 

I am actually one of those who values the input of EVERYONE, new leader and old alike, because we all come into the movement with different ideas, have different experiences, etc. EVERYONE has a role to play

 

I'll give you examples I've encountered. That brand new female CM going through WB21C, may have more outdoor experience than some of the male BS leaders since she's a retired Marine. That brand new TCDL may once upon a time been an OA section chief. That new pack's committee member may have been a former scout who earned the Heroism Award for saving someone's life. That new CM may have been a camp staffer for 5 years. And I can go on.

 

Now I admit a new leader may not know all the rules and regs about things, and that's where older leaders need to help them out. I'm in that situation now with the new CSDC program director, giving my advice and ideas when asked for them. He want to do some things that I wouldn't do, BUT he thinks we can pull it off and I'm supporting him on it. Heck some things I hope and pray do get pulled off b/c they are very good ideas, I'm concerned about staffing issues for them though.

 

For the record, in all my time in Scouting in the various positions I've been in, being a DL has been the hardest, most difficult, most draining, but also most FUN position I've been in, except the DE spot. I am SOOOO looking forward to being a TCDL again next year with middle son. My only regret is that I won't be with him through Bear as youngest becomes a Tiger when middle son completes Wolf.

 

Now in regards to JAMBO, while I think tenure in scouting, including time as a CS ldr., should be a factor, as discussed in the other thread and as Base stated, Boy Scouts IS different than Cub Scouts, and you need a person with heavy experience in Boy Scouts, or in Venturing for council Venturing crews, to head that up. I don't think a person with a few years expereince as a BS leader, except the 18-25yo ASM spot, should get the position b/c there are people with more experience out there applying. A lot of factors do go into play picking a Jambo ASM, and to be honest even with all my expereince I don't think I'm qualified for it.

 

In regards to WB21C, I admit I am favorable to the old course. BUT I think as more Boy Scout and Venturing leaders interact with Cub Scout leaders, the attitudes are slowly changing, just not fast enough for me. BTW that female staffer I mentioned in my first post, she was the lady Devil Dog I was telling you about.

[drmbear]

My very favorite position in Scouting was as the Senior Patrol Leader, which I did whenever I got the chance. I even acted as SPL for our council's Troop Leader Training course for a couple of years (training the staff and then running the course). I absolutely loved it. As an adult leader in Boy Scouts, you stay far, far away from that kind of involvement, but as a Cubmaster.... wow! It's the SPL - just that the boys are a lot smaller. I get to do all the wild and crazy things I got to do as SPL - lead songs, organize crazy skits, teach things, be the center of attention, etc. Exactly the opposite of what you need to do as an adult Boy Scout Leader.

 

So when I think of prestige as a Scout Leader, my only real concern is how the Scouts see me. My boys have fun, we do crazy things, and I hope that they pick up something about how they can be a great fun leader as they move on to Boy Scouts. My task as a Boy Scout Leader is no less important, but I can't be THAT person. There is probably no more important a time in a man's life than during the boy-to-man transition, and helping young men find their way then is what this program is all about. As a Cub Scout Leader I can just DO whatever needs to be done, but as a Boy Scout Leader I have to be far more skilled at helping the guys find their own path, setting a good example, and creating influence to good choices.

 

Maybe the only prestige you're talking about has to do with longevity, but either way I'm not as concerned with the recognition from other adult Scout Leaders as I am from the Scouts themselves.