When to call the law on your scouts????

[packsaddle]

I know because I've been involved with PTI before with youth not my own. I was very impressed by the sensitivity and good sense all parties applied.

As far as 'invoking' it, at the age YOU stated in your scenario, unless there are 'priors', the automatic first option is determined by Family Court which has more than one 'level' of PTI. I would not have to invoke anything other than my report of an illegal act. I know this, again, because I've been involved in the process in the past.

Moreover, the PTI process allows input from persons who are involved with the youth. Again, I know this because I've participated.

 

Finally, and this one is something you often do...I mentioned 'ignoring' the law and you somehow spun that into something having to do with 'not enforcing' the law. I suspect that you know the difference. I could be wrong.

 

Edit: I checked...at ages less than 16 in this state, first-offender, non-violent youth will be diverted by Family Court to one of several options, I guess all of them would be considered PTI of some sort. At any rate, a 10-year sentence for such a 14 year old first offender is very unlikely.

So I'm curious, each year how many 14 year olds receive 10-year sentences for non-violent crimes?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Beavah]

I know because I've been involved with PTI before with youth not my own.

 

Anecdote is not data. Being involved in one case in the past does not mean that all cases are handled that way, eh? Most folks are good people doin' their best, but the justice system in no way is the best equipped to handle the instruction and counseling of youth. On that, I'm afraid, you'll have to either take my word for it or talk to anybody who is really "participated" with it on more than an anecdotal basis.

 

Finally, and this one is something you often do...I mentioned 'ignoring' the law and you somehow spun that into something having to do with 'not enforcing' the law. I suspect that you know the difference. I could be wrong.

 

And you are wrong, though I enjoyed your usual ad hominem I honestly had no idea what yeh meant about "ignoring" the law, so I took the only interpretation that made any sense to me. The only person in da thread that used the term "ignoring" was you (leaving out Scoutfish's admission of a guilty youth ).

 

I checked...at ages less than 16 in this state, first-offender, non-violent youth will be diverted by Family Court to one of several options

 

Ah, but we weren't talkin' about your state, were we? We were talkin' about E61's native and beautiful Arizona, where a 14 year old can be tried as an adult, and where even a 12 year old in a case like this can be jailed and registered as a sex offender until age 25.

 

Besides, yeh did note my smiley on the bit about waitin' for E61 to tell us whether he was sendin' a lad off to the hoosegow for 10 years, right?

 

I responded to the sexting discussion over in a new thread on that topic, just because I found the responses here fascinatin' and disturbing, much as I have felt the same about the odd nationwide behavior of many prosecutors on this topic.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[packsaddle]

Beavah, I note that you didn't respond with even a single case in which a non-violent 14 year old was sentenced to 10 years. I'm still hoping to see your data on that.

I base my view on more than one case. That is more 'data' than you have given.

 

I was clear about my statement applying to "my area". Evidently you misunderstood what that meant. What I don't understand is your unwillingness to allow that PTI just might work well someplace.

 

But I know "my area" better than you do, so I will continue to reject your uninformed opinion of it. Your prejudice against PTI may be based on your personal experience someplace. If so you haven't been clear about that. And you may be correct about PTI in Arizona. But you haven't offered any data to support that opinion. Engineer61's opinion therefore carries as much weight as yours.

Have a nice day.

[acco40]

As a Scoutmaster, I've witnessed:

 

1) A knife thrown at another Scout in anger

2) A Scout "Malice Greened" with a large flashlight

3) Mooning of SAs by Scouts (from one car to another no less!)

4) Locking someone in an outhouse

5) Scouts slipping a camera down their pants (instant camera with flash)

6) Rough housing that got carried away

7) Urination on a fellow Scouts tent

8) Throw stick at passing cars

 

I don't condone any of that behavior but call law enforcement? On a backpacking trip, the Scouts went off one evening and on the trail was an old horse barn. They went in and looked around and it just so happened that park authorities wanted to charge them with "breaking and entering."

 

Boys at this age need guidance. Their frontal cortex is not developed and coupled with raging hormones some strange behavior can manifest itself!

 

I'm not making light of the situation but as adult leaders we should set high expectations for the boys and help them to meet them. Calling the police at every infraction doesn't help in that area IMHO.

 

 

[Eagle732]

If #1 would have been a hit then what do you do?

If you end up in the hospital for stitches you wouldn't have much choice, the hospital will probably notify PD.

The rest is due stern disciplinary action in my opinion.

 

Had to step away from the conversation for awhile to take some boys camping.

A good time was had by all even in high winds!

[packsaddle]

When I was a scout, during a game of capture the flag another scout picked up a big rock and told the others, "watch me hit ol' packsaddle" and then he threw it. It broke my kneecap.

Needless to say it was rather painful. I screamed and cried so badly that other boys were crying. What did the leaders do?

 

Took me to the hospital, got an x-ray, some stitches, and a cast, and then back to the campout. I guess that was a different time. The other boy was really sorry about what he did but he dropped out about a year later.

That scar is still there.

[Eagle732]

Yea, today professionals (medical, teachers etc.) are trained in recognizing child abuse and are required to report it to social services (at least here in MD).

So a stab wound certainly raise some questions and if satisfactory answers weren't giving the call would be made.

[Eamonn]

I've been around Scouts for a good while.

A lot of the Lads were kids that came from not so good areas and might be kids that today are described as at risk.

At risk to end up on the wrong side of the law.

I have has to deal with my fair share of Scouts fighting.

Most fights last less then a couple of minutes and if one person manages to land a good punch, it's rare.

I've had to deal with a group of Scouts who shoplifted while visiting stores in Ireland, a long way from home.

So far, to date I have never called the police.

I have been in juvenile court more than a few times to talk on behalf of Scouts who have got caught breaking the law. Most times for very minor crimes.

While I'm sure that there are some cases that leave no alternative but to involve the police. - I think myself lucky that I've never been put in that situation.

There have been Scouts that I know who have taken drugs. I've talked with their parents and tried to have them get the help that they need.

I think if they had been selling drugs to other Scouts? I might re-examine how I'd act.

Most of the time removing the Scout from where ever we are at, allowing a little time to pass and then having a heart to heart with the Lad and his parents seems to have worked for me.

Ea.

 

[Eagle732]

I agree Eamonn. I've never had to do it either. I have had to take serious action to satisfy a victim's parents in order to prevent the law being called by unhappy parents though.

[CricketEagle]

This thread really hit me hard this morning when coupled with the news from Ohio. This is all very close to home for me.

 

Mooning, Yep I remember that crud happening when I was a scout, and do remember LE being called. At the time it ended up being a stern talk with scouts and parents. Now days it would be a federal case I am sure. I recently witnessed and older scout pulling the same stunt, and still am angry about it.

 

Yes I also remember a few boys pulling the "extra" rain on a canvas tent trick. Almost all of those boys took care of themselves by leaving. These problems are not unique to scouts, as my sons tell me of similar issues at school all the time.

 

The line between boys pulling stunts, and risky abusive behavior is a fine one. It is blurred by both the age of the scout and his emotional maturity. We are here to help them grow, not call the law in every time.

 

Alcohol, yep once as a scout I even pulled that stunt. I have not seen the scouts try this one, but I am sure some day one will do it to. (That has been a problem with adults though)

 

Drugs, yep have a scout with that problem outside of scouts. It has not appeared in scouts, so I all I can do it watch it. The scouts themselves told me about it.

 

But, I have seen verbal abuse by scouts that tops almost any physical action. That is hard to deal with. I have also seen adults be even worse.

 

 

Never called LE about a scout.....came darn close on an adult...COR took care of that problem..still not sure if LE

 

If we took out all problem boys from our troop, the number would be cut by at least 1/3. Most grow out of their problems, given a little help.

 

Having been a "lost" problem boy myself, I tend to watch them closer. I have at least one other adult with a similar mindset in the troop acting as a backup.

 

Off record, we generally work with the parents and some "wink-wink", "nudge-nudge" with the schools to try and help the problem boys. We are not allowed to share information do to regulations, but we can talk generalities. No names are mentioned, but in reality we all know which boys we are talking about.

 

So no, I have never gone to LE, but I have gone to parents to nudge them and their into counseling and a professional evaluation. Prior to my entry into the troop, at least one boy was asked to leave.

 

[Eamonn]

The correctional facility where I work is for adult males only.

I have never worked with young offenders or juveniles.

I work with guys who have been convicted of everything from murder, rape, child molestation and drug dealing along with just about every other crime you can think of.

While I don't have any hard numbers at hand.

The largest group in our jail are young African-Americans.

Many are young (Under 25) and a lot of these guys come from Philadelphia.

A lot of them are in for dealing drugs.

Many lack any sort of real education, belong to a gang (Bloods and Crypts are the biggest gangs.)

Talking with these guys,a lot of them say that they have been on the streets selling drugs since they were 11 or 12 years old and the income that they received was the only income they had.

Many come from broken homes. Dad was never around. So the gang became a very big part of their life and who they were.

Sometimes these guys show me photos of their kids.

Great looking little kids. But I sometimes wonder how long before these great little kids follow in the path of their Father's?

Dad isn't around, all too often the raising of these kids is left to a Grandmother. So any idea of a male role model is out the window.

How long till these kids join the gangs and start pushing dope on the street?

How long till they end up in trouble with the law?

I'm not daffy enough to think that we can save the world or fix all the wrongs, but wouldn't it be great if we could help a few?

Ea.