Do we need scout camps?

[skeptic]

While there surely should be camperships made available, the pool is a critical element in most camps. It may have been necessary to do the update due to health and safety issues if it is old. Much of the pool system is not visible to most, but they can become very inefficient and costly as they get old, especially if they break underground. Also, sometimes there are donors that specify money for a particular item. Any number of reasons. However, I am not in your council, so do not see what you apparently see.

 

I do know that a spread sheet for camp costs, including salaries for staff, food, utilities, store supplies, and so on are available in our council with a bit of digging. The money spent has not met the income for over a decade. But we still have camperships, money specifically donated for that purpose.

 

Always room for improvements, even in the best run councils and camps.

[Eagle92]

One thing in regards to pools. I believe, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but some federal legislation was passed that said those under 18 can not work on waterfronts that do not have clear water. So those camps that had lakes and ponds for swimming no longer can use them and must have a pool.

[shortridge]

momof2cubs: Check out this past thread on camp costs to get an idea of the actual expenses. It's far more than you might think. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=236924

 

"And even assuming that what you say is true, I don't believe that the funds are managed appropriately either."

 

So your attitude is that no council can ever manage its camp funds properly?

 

As for the pool upgrade: It's entirely possible that state or local regulators required it to be upgraded or overhauled for safety and/or environmental reasons. Did you ask?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[shortridge]

Eagle: I don't know if this is new, but it's from the U.S. Department of Labor ...

 

Youth under 16 years of age may not be employed as lifeguards at natural environment facilities such as rivers, steams, lakes, ponds, quarries, reservoirs, wharfs, piers, or ocean-side beaches. -- www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs60.htm

 

Darn, I love swimming in the local steam, too.

[momof2cubs]

shortridge said: "So your attitude is that no council can ever manage its camp funds properly?"

 

I don't know about every council. I know mine. And I really wouldn't know, all I know is that I could never find the numbers and the camperships available are extremely rare.

 

Regarding your link to the other post, I still don't see official numbers. But one thing caught my attention: someone mentioned that compared to non-scout sleep away camps, the BSA camps are dirt cheap. That could be, but non-BSA camps are not run by unpaid volunteers.

[shortridge]

First: Your council is not going to be publishing its camp-specific budgets online. (Does your local YMCA publish its branch budgets online?) You'd have to ask the council office for them directly. It's not clear that you've done that; if you have and they've said no, you might have a legitimate beef.

 

Second: The thread I linked to was an attempt to get an estimate about the actual costs of running a camp, not provide "official numbers." Remember that each camp is different. Some may be owned by a private trust and leased by the council. Some may have 30 lodges, requiring more of a maintenance budget, while others just have primitive campsites. Some camps may have a specific independent endowment for upkeep. Making broad generalizations is problematic.

 

Third: I'm not sure where you got the idea that BSA camps are run by "unpaid volunteers." Some camp programs may be volunteer-run in your neck of the woods, such as a Trail to Eagle week or a special Venturing expedition. But the vast majority of summer camps require paid staff to run for the entire summer. It would be impossible to put together a quality program based on the intermittent schedules of volunteers. You need program instructors, food service staffers, first-aiders, maintenance workers, and enough over-18 and over-21 people who can take a week before camp and go to National Camp School. And those staffers work for fairly cheap, too. Even with room (a tent or cramped cabin) and board (the same food campers eat), every one of them could make more money at the local fast-food chain over the summer. They are not highly-paid professionals at the council offices, but high school and college students, teachers and retirees who love Scouting and their camp.

 

Fourth: You decry the lack of camperships, but then refuse to donate to support that cause. I'm a bit confused by your logic. You do know that you can make a donation designated solely for the campership fund, right? That way your money won't go to the new pool or camp staff salaries or any other area you find objectionable.

[Eagle92]

Short,

 

THAT'S IT!!!! That rule came out within the past 10 years. My old camp never had a pool, always using a manmade lake instead. When I heard about a pool being built at the camp and saw the pics of it, I was very surprised b/c I know how expensive pools are to maintain. I was told it was a new law that forced the council to build a pool.

 

Now I know the laws say under 15 cannot do it, but I have seen a few 15 yos, and one 14 yo, go for BSA Lifeguard. And of course they are guarding as part of the course.

[Basementdweller]

Short......So tell me where it says FOS dollars are used for camperships????? Transparency in council finances........

 

 

FOS dollars go to pay our SE $150K a year and his DE's $60k. so how many families donating $50 each does it take to pay that SE salary??????

[BS-87]

"Donor intent" is a buzzword these days.

 

If you're making a donation, you should always reserve the right to earmark it in my opinion. If they won't let you earmark it, it just shows a disregard for donor intent and they shouldn't get your contribution anyway. Of course, earmarked funds free up general donations for other areas, but that's beyond the point of the matter.

 

I don't know that I agree with you though BD... $150k is probably too much to pay for someone whose position often requires a skillset most national corporations would pay $400-600k for. If they're willing to work for that $150k, they either don't possess that skillset that should be required, or they just really love and believe in Scouting. Many of us know SE's in both categories...

[OldGreyEagle]

I am still working on "unpaid volunteer", are there paid volunteers because if there are, where do I apply?

[shortridge]

Basement,

 

I'm not sure what you mean re: camperships. Are you saying that your council says FOS isn't used for camperships? What does your reference to transparency mean?

 

My point was simply that if someone objects to a lack of funding for camperships, withholding donations isn't going to solve that problem. Simply make your donation contingent upon it being allocated directly to camperships, and encourage all your friends to do the same. That way you know it's not going to a $2,000 office chair to cushion the SE's derriere or something.

[Horizon]

After the poor response from my local council when one of my Scouts applied for a campership, I cut my annual FOS donation in half, and put the rest into a Troop fund for camperships for boys in my unit. I told the DE what I was doing, and why.

[momof2cubs]

shortridge: I gave to FOS in the past under the assumption that at least some of my money was going to camperships. Since I have found ZERO evidence that this is the case, I make my contribution to my district and I earmark it for camperships within our district. I know and trust our DE and I specifically earmark my donation for that purpose. I would give it to my unit, but it is not badly needed for that purpose. And that's where I want my money to go.

 

I am not wasting my time trying to change council and I am not going to make it my mission to try to unearth their financials. The burden should be on THEM and not on me. By donating to my district, I know where my money is going. Maybe if enough people start withholding donations national/council will get the message. Bad enough that I have to send them membership money every year.

[shortridge]

OK, this begs a few questions. Sorry if it seems like I'm harping on this, but I'm really now more confused than ever before.

 

1. What evidence do you have that FOS does *not* support camperships?

2. Is your district a separate nonprofit organization from your council?

 

Now to discuss. I'm no expert on council operations, but districts are generally part and parcel of councils. They're not separate organizations. So if you're writing a check to your DE, chances are that the money is ending up in the coffers of the council you dislike. The DE doesn't work for the district, he works for the council. He usually doesn't get credit for raising money (a substantial part of his job) unless the money goes to the council. So you might want to ask some questions and rethink that strategy.

 

Also, could you explain or clarify your earlier statement that summer camps are run by unpaid volunteers? I'm still trying to wrap my head around that. I think your understanding of how summer camps work is incorrect.

[Basementdweller]

I asked very specifically last year if any of the FOS money goes to camperships and the answer was NO in our council.

 

The council finances are very tightly guarded and there is a silence a stone wall. Complete lack of transparency so the donors can see what is going on......

 

I send two boys beyond my own scout to summer camp every year.....My experience has been bad with cubs, Zero of the boy that I have paid for cub resident camp became boy scouts......All of the boy scouts I have paid for are still active.

 

 

short.....My day camp was run by unpaid volunteers......Netted the council $3,000 and put me in the debt of a lot of people....Three years later I am still have people cashing in those IOU's....

 

 

(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)