Do we need scout camps?

[Basementdweller]

The old Fund Our Salary campaign is well underway and has me fuming about it..........

 

The presenter at roundtable said the money is used to train your leaders and support the local camp.

 

Well the leaders all pay for training, well that is a flat lie.

 

So it got me thinking........

 

 

What if the council did not own any camps???????

 

Many complain they are money pits and support weak troops.

 

The FOS guy used it to ask for money.......

 

Just lookin for some adult discussion

 

[qwazse]

What would happen? A few troops would do it on their own as they always have.

 

The rest would pull together, start a capital fund for a sweet piece of property, recruit full-time staff to develop/manage it, encourage boys to become counselors for a pittance, and adults to make annual donations to offset the cost to individual campers. They might even come up with a fancy name for themselves like "District X, Friends of Scouting!"

[skeptic]

Yes! Should an effort be made to support smaller camps might be the better question for me. Many smaller camps have great facilities, or once were really viable. But, for many reasons, mostly population shifts and financial support mechanisms, struggle to survive against the mega camps in the general area. Personally, I feel National really needs to find a way to assure these smaller camps can survive, as they serve an important role, even if it is to a smaller group of users.

 

Our own camp has been rediscovered by a lot of L.A. area troops; we are closer, and have a decent program. Yet we were down to 2 weeks last year, and are at 3 this year with fingers crossed. The Webeloe program also has 3 shortened weeks. But, we also have a lot of facility deferred items that could eventually lead to inability to function within current laws. We are fortunate that we have been able so far to NOT lose the oldest buildings, and a donation allowed one of the 2 to be refurbished and updated, while keeping the historic shell. Lot of positive possibilities, but still a struggle.

[Eagle92]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

In reference to summer camp programs. I know alternatives are out there, but they are usually more expensive. FOS and OA service projects do help keep costs down.

 

I know having a set location for various events throughout the year is also helpful. I know the small camp within our district is used for multiple districts' events, and a council level one. I know that having day camp at one of the local camps gets rid of several major headaches in day camp planning.

 

Also some folks, especially Cub Families, get comfortable with one particular camp. Downside is that sometimes they do not want to try other camps. But at least they are camping.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

What is the definition of a council owned camp????

 

A camp with a dining hall, heated cabins with complete kitchens, swimming pool, high and low cope course, climbing walls or towers, lake with boats, rifle and archery ranges and amphitheater.

 

A camp with a dining hall, swimming pool and flush toilets?

 

A piece of property with water and a pit toilet

 

or

 

Just a piece of property?

 

 

When you utilize the Council owned Camp what are your expectations?????

 

 

[JMHawkins]

For our brand new troop, Summer Camp last year was great. The troop was all of 4 months old. A lot of strong friendships were built in the troop over that week, and what has emerged as our leadership corps really started to gel then. I hope that by the time these guys age out, they will have plenty of other bigger adventures to look back on, sea kayaking the San Juans, or through-hiking Olympic National Park maybe, but for a bunch of kids without much outdoor experience, Summmer Camp was a fantastic introduction to a week (mostly) outdoors.

 

Seeing other troops was good for them too (and for us SMASMs). There were troops with big, cool, older kids (our oldest is 13) who were into it, as well as citified parent-son camping club troops with the adults cooking for the scouts. Our guys saw the contrast, and most didn't like the adult led stuff at all. "How're they gonna learn to do it for themselves?" one scout asked me.

 

Then again, I think we're pretty lucky with our district/council.

 

[Eagle92]

Base,

 

All the above, as it depends upon the council and the camp. My council is fortunate in that we own or have access to 6 camps.

 

Oldest camp is in my district 25 minutes away. Has one major shelter with facilties, a QM building that doubles as a trading post, several permanent shelters and some airondacks in several campsites.

 

Second oldest is pretty much open with 8-12 permanent shelters and one health lodge. This is used for council camporees.

 

Next up is the primary summer camp with all the goodies.

 

Followed by another camp that was a standard summer camp until operations could not keep it going. It was rented out to another non-profit, and they made some major improvements, but once the lease was up, they left due to the economy. What's interesting is that apparently a road split the entire property. the section on one side has been used by the BSA all this time, while the other, the larger portion, was rented.

 

Fifth is the HA base and wildness area. HA base is like #3 and wilderness is just that, wilderness.

 

Last is a camp that is owned by another non-profit that has some faciltiies. haven't been to that one though.

 

Camp I grew up at was on a reservation that had over 16000 acres. Originally intended to be several camps with differing ammeneties (if memory serves a CS camp with a cub world, standard BS summer camp, and a wilderness camp). But last I heard, they only have 2 camps: one developed and used for everything, and one that is wilderness. Loved that portion of the reservation.

 

Now Quaz mentioned oen thing and I can see that happening. Another thing I see happening is units going out and finding their own camps, but that can be costly.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Based on my experience with my pack, and the few tag-a-longs I have been to with our sister troop.....

 

NO!

 

Our pack has a handfull who will regularly go to parent/son weekend at Council camp. WE have a handfull each year who go to resident camp or WEbeloree

 

The cost for one parent and one scouts varies between $75.00 to $110.00 depending on wether Resident or parent'son.

 

The program is basic and not any better than what we put on at our pack campouts. The food is eatable and portions are based on 3 year old's diets.

 

At pack camping, we order food that both parents and scouts will eat, we are more enthused and energetic with leaders who lead each activity station and we also figure in more free time.

 

It helps we know scouts personally instead of "another scout".

 

The only downside is not doing bb guns or archery, but it's not that much of a downside since over half of our cubs own hunting rifles and shotguns already. The other half have air rifles as opposed to bbg uns. In case you don't know, air rifles are way more powerful and do not operate by spring/air like the council guns do.

 

We started rotation through a set of 5 different camping areas about the time I tookover as CubMaster ( cough cough... )

so that it's not the same old thing over and over again.

 

 

So from my viewpoint: NOPE! WE don't NEED them. Having them is a great idea, but we don't need them.

 

Incidentally, as Cub Scout camp promoter for my district, I do propmotre our council camp. I truely believe every scout and parent should go to at least 1 parent son weekend and 1 resident camp.

 

One area that we can quite compete with council camps is when they do skits at campfire ceremonmies. But you can also argue that - that is the people, not the camp.

 

[Basementdweller]

I am going to say No as well.

 

 

Our troop goes to resident camp and that is all. Our Pack attends the day events on occasion and our cub day camp is done in a local park.

 

The FOS presentation and the complain about summer camps rubber stamping merit badges got me thinking............

 

 

Our troop utilizes our local state parks, national forest and regional park system. It is much more affordable than our local scout camps.

[Horizon]

With land impacted here in Southern California, it is great having a place where I can take large troop for a week. We also leverage a lot of the specialty stuff available:

 

Whitset organizes whitewater rafting MB and activites.

Emerald Bay on Catalina Island has a SCUBA program.

Chawanakee has great stuff on the lake (including a very cold mile swim).

 

The camps also have the required NRA instructors for rifle and shotgun.

 

Do I need them the rest of the year? No - never use them. But having the available for summer camp is great.

[momof2cubs]

Basement said: "A camp with a dining hall, heated cabins with complete kitchens, swimming pool, high and low cope course, climbing walls or towers, lake with boats, rifle and archery ranges and amphitheater."

 

That's what our council has. And they recently spent millions of dollars upgrading it yet again. But try and get a campership out of them and see how far you get.

 

My family and I decided that we will not be making an FOS contribution this year or for the foreseeable future until I see a dedicated effort on the part of national and council to make scouting affordable to all income levels. I am SICK AND TIRED of them talking a poor mouth. I don't even want to know what the salaries are for paid employees at the council or national level. I don't ever know where my money goes. "Maintaining camping facilities" just doesn't cut it for me.

 

The scouting world I know is being run 100% by unpaid volunteers and funded by the blood, sweat, and tears of parents and other involved adults. I am not contributing any more to over paid executives or overly fancy camp properties. This scout mom (and dad) is done.

[desertrat77]

I say "yes"

 

The keys to a successful camp: good programming, good food, rich traditions unique to that camp, and good staff.

 

That is what many professional scouters don't get. The new pool and fancy nature lodge--in and of themselves--won't draw more campers

 

In councils with a solid, time honored summer camp, generations of scouts and scouters return for the spirit of the place, not creature comforts.

 

The spirit of scouting, however, cannot be officially measured or tracked in business/management models, so it gets overlooked.

 

PS I don't blame anyone for being frustrated at the money pits that many summer camps have become. Just throwing good money after bad. I hate to see venerable old camps go out of business because a council staff full of MBAs can't ascertain what makes a camp successful. The keys to successful council camps are so obvious but often ignored as "old fashioned" or "quaint."(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[artjrk]

I feel fortunate to be part of a larger council (National Capitol Area) that has multiple camps Camp Snyder that is close by and has a good cub Scout camp and Goshen which supports multiple Webelos and Boy Scout camps and a High Adventure camp.

 

Our Troop also utilizes other local area council camps for off season camping. Cost to the troop is very reasonable (about $25 - 40 a night total, not per kid) Winter time Cabin use is also available. I estimate we use BSA camps for 30 -40 % of our outings.

 

So Yes Camps are needed and desirable for us.

[shortridge]

Desertrat said just what I was thinking about the keys to a good camp. Bravo.

 

However, running a physical site of any sort is a money pit, whether it's an air-conditioned office building or a summer camp. Taxes, insurance, building maintenance, plumbing and septic regulations, vehicle upkeep, site security, business licenses, electrical work, record-keeping ... and if you offer summer programs (or if you have people at your office during business hours), you have to add a myriad of staff costs. The vast majority of those costs are not passed on to the campers. Thus, donations.

 

Think of it this way. The core program activity of any organization is always going to be the biggest-ticket item in the budget, simply because that's the emphasis. If BSA were the BCN (Boy Computer Nerds), most of its budget would be devoted to computers. (And I'm sure someone, somewhere would complain that the server room and computer labs were money pits, because they need to be replaced every few years and they're soooo expensive. )(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[momof2cubs]

Shortridge said: "The vast majority of those costs are not passed on to the campers. Thus, donations." REALLY??????? You could have fooled me. Has anyone ever seen a P&L for a camp? If so, how do I find those numbers? How do I know how much is spent on what versus what comes in?

 

I work with financials for a living, and I never, EVER, believe anything anyone ever says about the costs of business until they back it up. I cannot find a council P&L anywhere. And I have looked.

 

And even assuming that what you say is true, I don't believe that the funds are managed appropriately either. I believe that there is tremendous waste and that they use funds for non critical items (i.e. a multi million dollar upgrade of the camp swimming pool) instead of using it for camperships.