How to deal with hate.

[Eagle732]

I know we're not suppose to discuss the three Gs here but I was searching youtube and came across a piece by Penn and Teller on BSA.

I have to say I was appalled by their language and hate filled message. I know I don't want my son to be involved in their "troop".

I've also come across some who when they find out I'm involved in Scouting will launch into a tirade about hate, bigotry, etc.

Seems there are a hole bunch of people that really do hate us.

Seems like the ones who demand tolerance have the least tolerance for those that don't agree with them.

How do we deal with this?

[Tampa Turtle]

It is always that way. You need to walk the walk and not get nasty. Show people what we do. Some folks will always be offended no matter what we do--be it God, or uniforms, or dirty scouters. I get the same look when I start some story with "at my church..."

 

While I am of two minds on the Gay thing I do not think that BSA's change on that would convince some people.

 

I had a bad experience in cubs when I was a kid and thought poorly of scouting as a result. If it was not for my boys wanting to do it and me getting involved I would still have that opinion.

[Trevorum]

P&T are just showmen, trying to get a reaction. I really don't think there a lot of people who "hate" Scouting. Maybe some, but not many. Our problem is that a lot of people do see us as overly conservative when it comes to issues of social justice. And let's face it, we are sort of behind the curve on that one.

 

Turtle's right, though. When confronted by ire, just turn the cheek and be an example of what is good in Scouting.

[KC9DDI]

Seems like the ones who demand tolerance have the least tolerance for those that don't agree with them.

 

Do we need to tolerate intolerance? Hmmm... very Zen.

 

Maybe "tolerance" is the wrong word to use. I remember an SNL skit with Tina Fey impersonating Sarah Palin, saying something like "Don't think I don't tolerate gay people. I do. I tolerate them. I tolerate them with all my heart."

 

You'd probably consider me among those who "demand tolerance." To pick an extreme example, on some level I can "tolerate" the KKK, the Westboro Baptist Church, and neo-Nazis. I "tolerate" them to the extent that I recognize that there's 7 billion people on this planet, and a handful of those people will have extreme ideas and engage in extreme behavior. But I don't "tolerate" them to the extent that I will support their mission, either financially or even philosophically. I'm not sure I'd "tolerate" my tax dollars supporting their activities, my church or employer providing meeting space or other resources to these groups, etc. I definitely wouldn't "tolerate" their protesting a friend's funeral, spray-painting a swastika on my home or business, or burning a cross in my yard. And, I'd probably be willing to publically denounce or disagree with the ideology or behaviors practiced by these groups. So "tolerance" is not an all-or-nothing type thing - I can tolerate that these people exist, have a right to their own ridiculous opinions, and enjoy the same human and legal rights as everyone else. But that doesn't mean that I am bound to silently, passively watch while these people do harm to myself or others.

 

Same idea with the BSA. I can tolerate the fact that in our very large organization, there are folks who I disagree with on a variety of issues. But that doesn't mean that I can't call attention to what I perceive as unjustified, immoral behavior.

 

How do we deal with this?

 

Well, on the large scale, either we do or we don't. I think the key issues are clear and well known. So we can either stay the course, and continue to exclude useful and qualified people from our organization, face increased difficulties in soliciting donations from other community organizations, and face increased opposition from the public in general. If we truly perceive ourselves to be on the moral high ground, it would seem that we shouldn't be too concerned with the fallout. The other option is to evaluate whether it's time to change some of these policies.

 

On a smaller scale, my own strategy is to say something like, "Well, I agree with you. But I feel that Scouting offers a fantastic program, and it's truly a shame that we hamstring ourselves with our policies on X, Y and Z. But I think that change needs to come from inside the organization, which I why I continue to volunteer. And, in a far as I'm a role model, I make a point not to model this bigoted behavior and ideology."

 

I guess when an organization categorizes a group of people as immoral, and unfit to serve as volunteers in a youth group, I wouldn't be surprised for people to take offense, and to share their own opinion with me. I guess I can "tolerate" that?

[moosetracker]

Eagle732 says I know we're not suppose to discuss the three Gs here

 

We can talk about Girls, Gas and Grass??? How come??

 

(Well I must admit my Grass is covered in snow, my husband stinks when he has too much Gas, and my son has gone Girl-crazy..) So what's new with you?

 

Seriously - what was the link? It seems Penn & Teller are against the BSA, but I didn't see that they ran a troop AND was against the BSA.

[bacchus]

I think the best way to deal with hate is to take the first step; the leap of faith.

 

Also, getting together with someone or a group that you think hates you and providing well-needed service for a third group does wonders for tolerance and understanding.

[Eagledad]

>>How do we deal with this?

[Kudu]

moosetracker writes:

 

"Seriously - what was the link?"

 

Here's an "inclusive" link for the "Wood Badge in Spanish" thread:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U87S3UKPWIw

 

"In the Boy Scouts I learned to camp, which I hated and still hate. And I learned how to build a fire which I have never needed or desired to do. My Scoutmaster was a pleasant enough old coot, and the hate and disgust I took away from Scouting was accidental."

 

My goodness! All that hated directed at Scoutcraft!

 

Penn sounds like a "leadership skills" expert!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Penn is one of the most vehement evangelical atheists there is. It's not surprising he would have no use for the BSA or scouting.

 

He has a right to his opinions and we ours, it may not be necesssary for either side to change

[Tampa Turtle]

I would be proud of a boy who brought that up in his EBOR--wrestling with those questions is exactly the kind of character we need to be developing.

 

I think "what do we do" should be based on the right thing --and dang I am conflicted over that--than what is expedient. And expedient can mean losing funding/pr as well as losing RC/Mormon scouts. It should be based on what is right.

[TWOMORROWS]

I have a boy and a girl scout, so I catch it from both sides. I may not agree with every single idealogy of either group, but overall I think they are both excellent organizations.

Some ask how I could be a member of an organization that excludes gays and some ask how I could be a member of an organization that allows gays. Overall I think the people against the Girl Scout stance are more numerous, but then again maybe they are just more vocal.

Live by example!

[OldGreyEagle]

"It should be based on what is right."

 

The question, of course, is who gets to determine what is "right" ?

 

I am reminded of an early exchange here on the forums many years ago. For some reason I quoted a line from Jesus Christ Superstar that applies here. Jesus tells Pontius Pilate he is looking for truth, Pilate responds, "What is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?

 

Now, last time I posted that I was accused of being a Liberal and the reason Western Civilization would rot and collapse. From quoting a Tim Rice/Andrew LLoyd Webber lyric? I thought not but who knows?

 

Everything is relative, as far as we know Karl Marx may have had friends that thought he was just to conservative and right leaning and his work didnt go far enough. Having respect for others may be easy to say, much more difficult to live.

(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

[Papadaddy]

Matthew 5:44

[Eagle732]

""In the Boy Scouts I learned to camp, which I hated and still hate. And I learned how to build a fire which I have never needed or desired to do. My Scoutmaster was a pleasant enough old coot, and the hate and disgust I took away from Scouting was accidental."

 

"My goodness! All that hated directed at Scoutcraft!

 

"Penn sounds like a "leadership skills" expert""

 

Kudu, did you watch more than a few seconds of this filth!

Please tell me you don't find this amusing.

 

[Stosh]

My reaction is always the same: "Sorry you feel that way." and then walk away. You have acknowledged that their comment was heard and understood, but you have no interest in participating in any discussion that involves that level of hate. You will never change that person's mind, and it is a total waste of time to try. There are more important things to be doing with my time. As a secondary affect of this approach, these people wish to engage in a dialog and drag you down to their level. When that happens, it leaves them pretty much empty handed. Oh, and by the way, remember as you walk away, you will be called every negative thing that person can try and come up with to try and get a rise out of you. Don't play their game, take the higher road.

 

Stosh