JTE -- What did you learn?

[johnponz]

This is one of the reasons there is a degree of friction between volunteers and professionals. Both groups need each other. Who better knows how your unit is doing than you (that is why you need to fill out the metrics). If there is a general problem in a district, that can be identified and reflected in the DE's bonus, but to do that the units' volunteers have to complete the assesments.

 

If only the "bad" units complete the assesments the numbers will be skewed, and the DE will receive an unfairly low bonus. If only "good" units complete the survey, the opposite will happen so it is pretty important that everyone completes them so an overall picture can be had, and so that bonuses reflect reality.

 

Besides that, this program will identify which units have strong programs so that they can potentially help units with not so strong programs. This is also a part of corporate culture called "benchmarking" and "best practices". I know some do not like the fact that BSA mirrors corporate programs to some extent. However, in such a large organization, this is inevetable and is not going to change anytime soon.

 

When you agreed to volunteer in BSA, you also agreed to participate in BSA programs (maybe not explicitly but by association). If you do not like these programs, I would suggest you form your own youth organization that does not include them.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[Eagle732]

 

"When you agreed to volunteer in BSA, you also agreed to participate in BSA programs (maybe not explicitly but by association). If you do not like these programs, I would suggest you form your own youth organization that does not include them."

 

Really? Either agree with everything or go home?

[johnponz]

I did not say agree. I said participate...big difference.

 

In this case, the organization needs your units' numbers to gauge how the bigger organization is doing. Why not cooperate...I am not saying that you cannot complain (everyone complains). I am saying that you should cooperate and participate to help the orgnization know where it stands, and where to improve.

 

The numbers mean more if everyone contributes.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[KC9DDI]

When you agreed to volunteer in BSA, you also agreed to participate in BSA programs (maybe not explicitly but by association)

 

Participation in JTE is not a condition of membership, neither explicitly nor by association. Just like participation in Woodbadge, OA, NYLT, Jamboree, Cub Scout Day Camp, etc are all optional. Maybe recommended, maybe a good idea, maybe strongly encouraged... but definitely not required. Asking people to leave Scouting based on lack of participation in an optional program is a bit extreme, don't you think?

 

(And do you think that the numbers-focused professionals would really want anyone to leave the BSA over some silly paperwork "program" like JTE?)

 

But I completely agree with you regarding DE's deserving to be rewarded by bonuses for quality work. And regarding the need for there to be some kind of metrics that gauge the quality of individual units and districts.

 

However, the concern is that JTE is not an effective way to measure the health of a unit, or of a district. In my opinion, it really only serves to identify the "bottom 1%" of disfunctional, unhealthy, about-to-die units. It doesn't really have very much to offer strong units, or even to mildly troubled units looking to get back on track. And I think that's the significant problem with JTE, and with the Quality Unit program that preceded it - a strong unit looks at it and says "Well, this doesn't help us at all, so why bother?" And they're absolutely right - the BSA releases all kinds of aids and adjuncts for developing a quality program, but if a unit's program is going strong on it's own, why should the unit expend it's resources on something that they don't need?

 

So while it may be useless to certain units, it has become very important to certain DEs. So the end result is a DE hounding a unit to pour time into something that has no benefit for the unit, which I agree is a cause for concern and skepticism. Now it seems to be that is all parties involved act Scoutlike (DE remembers that A Scout is Courteous, and the units remember that A Scout is Helpful) then it's really not a huge problem.

 

But, in general, it seems like JTE needs another revamping...

[johnponz]

Again you misquote or misinterpret what I am saying. To be 100% clear, if you do not want to participate in programs which are designed to enhance the organization as a whole, I believe that you should form your own youth organization where you do not have to deal with such programs.

 

I did not say you should get kicked out or even that the program was mandatory. What I said was that BSA is a large organization that needs all units to participate to know where it stands. Again, I believe that if you do not want to help the organization that you volunteered to be a part of, you should step aside and let someone who wants to help take your place.

 

These are just my own personal opinions, and do not reflect any sort of BSA policy.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

If you look at pretty much any BSA job description for volunteer positions, there are FAR more things suggested as responsibilities than anyone can do.

 

I interpret such lists of responsibilities as a cafeteria plan in which I then choose the responsibilities I am either GOOD at doing, or which I WANT to do for various reasons.

 

So I disagree with your theory. The JTE is a program suggested but not required by BSA. Personally I wouldn't bother spending large amounts of time figuring out if I met a particular goal by .1% or whatever. I'd ballpark it unless the council gave me better information.

 

Personally, if I had a Gold unit, I'd fill out the form in order to have something to report at the Blue and Gold Dinner and to have something to crow about.

 

But I don't, and I use the JTE to set priorities on what my Cub Pack needs to work on the most.

 

But heck --- if a unit leader doesn't want to fill out the form, they don't have to do so.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

What data do unit JTE reports provide to which the council doesn't already have access?

 

Retention, membership growth and Webelos transition numbers are on or can be derrived from the charter. Advancement reports are already submitted. Ditto training, NYLT and summer camp attendance (out of council long-term camping could be easily reported between camps).

 

None of the rest has anything to do with a DE's performance. A DE's job is money and membership. The few program elements for which the DE is responsible should be part of an evaluation of the district committee -- offer a day camp? What percentage of Cubs attend? Same for Boy Scout camporees. Does the district off a full slate of training courses? Active OA chapter? Functioning Commissioner Corps? Some of this is on the district JTE, but not all. But the point is, that data can come from the district, not the units.

 

And to KC9's point, the data available to the council is without reporting bias. No units juicing the numbers just to get a patch, no DEs "helping" units with their numbers, no holes in the data from units with curmudgeonly leaders.

[johnponz]

Without looking at the form, one item is the number of service project a unit completes.

 

I am sure there are others, but I do not have a form handy this second.

[Twocubdad]

That's correct. And I do have the form here so let me help you out. Others are short-term camping nights, number of times the PLC meets, number of Courts of Honor and a troop budget. But none of those are necessary to "gauge how the bigger organization is doing" or to evaluate the DE's performance.

[johnponz]

"But none of those are necessary to "gauge how the bigger organization is doing" or to evaluate the DE's performance."

 

That is your opinion...and that is fine you are entitled to it.

 

However, the committee of volunteers and professionals that put together the JTE requirements apparently disagree as the % of troops earning the Bronze award or above in the district impacts the District's JTE award score so by extrapulation, the committee must have considered the areas that you mention important to District performance.

 

I do not know but I will guess that a component of the DEs bonus is tied to the % of units earning bronze or higher. If that is the case, his performance is being partly judged on the factors you mention.

 

Maybe National is trying to send the message that Unit Service and support is critical to the performance of the DE and the District. That would be a culture change for the positive linked to the JTE which is just one more reason units should participate.(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[Scoutfish]

johnponz,

 

My district has a great DE. Nice guy, scout at heart.

 

But as gteat as the guy is...as much as we get along great, can laugh and joke, etc..

 

How many service projects my pack does, the advancement of our scouts, how many cross to Boy Scouts, and how many Pack meetings ( since we do not have courts of honor) we have have absolutely nothing to do with our DE doing a great, or horrible job.

 

The DE has no input or affect on our pack doing service projects, advancement, or Pack court of honors

 

I can tell you how many times I have seen our DE at our pack or visiting our sister troop: 0

 

I do see him every month at Rt, at camporees and council camping events (although usually only dropping in for less that 1 hour for the entire weekend).

 

 

And speaking of...our pack does participate in alot of service projects. So does ours sister troop. WE both have excellent budgets, both regular meetings recognizing scouts wether it is a pack meeting or CoH.

 

So, what that part of the JTE is supposed to say about a DE is no more relevant than what the ingredients of Girl Scout cookies say about the girl scouts who are selling them.

 

 

[Eagle732]

So with all this talk about how DE's and their bonuses, and how JTE helps National I have one question.

How does JTE help my boys?

 

Does it help them by diverting the finite resources of the adult volunteers?

Does developing a troop budget when none was ever needed before help them?

Does encouraging a fitness program to a bunch of kids so active in sports that we had to move our meeting nights to Sunday to avoid conflicts with games and practice help them?

Even increasing membership and advancement might not be a good thing if it compromises the quality of the unit's program.

I could go on but you get the idea.

 

On the other hand if JTE encourages a unit to camp 10 weekend a year instead of 6 than that's good thing.

If it encourages most adult direct contact leaders to be trained, great.

But the DE's can encourage those important things through the UC's.

 

If Council and National need statistics they should collect them from the information they have. They can certainly find the information on advancement and membership. If they need to know how many nights we camp or how many service projects we do send me a survey and if it's not too long, confusing or convoluted, with an entire page of explanations on how to fill it out then I'll probably return it.

 

I believe most units will follow along with JTE and that's fine. I look at it like selling popcorn. My committee says they don't want to sell popcorn and I explain that if we even make the slightest effort we appear to be a team player and not one of "those units". So we hand out the order forms and order whatever the boys want to sell and the profits go in their scout accounts. Same with JTE, no effort, it's just done to get along with the powers to be. And the reason why there's no effort is because there's no perceived benefit to our boys.

 

Also I don't like the grading of units. I see it as something that could be abused. I hadn't considered this until I attended a RT where the Commissioner brought the WDLs into the Boy Scout RT to discuss Web transition. The Commish held up the JTE form and said "this is what you need to be looking at when you're looking for a troop!". When I told our committee how district was promoting JTE as THE way to measure the quality of a unit they understood how important it was.I wouldn't be surprised to see all unit JTE ratings on the district website in the future. Why bother visiting several troops when Webs and parents can just join the nearest Gold unit?

 

and johnponz, you did say "agree with", twice. You also said participate, once.

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

[HICO_Eagle]

I'm not a fan of JTE -- as was said, I don't like "grading" units. However, I think a lot of you are taking this the wrong way. The point of JTE as I understood it was partly recognition of those units who have a superior program but also to help the District and Council identify which units may be having a tough time and target them for fixes or improvement before the units approach collapse.

 

A unit which is performing on all cylinders is obviously not going to learn much (if anything) from this. Congratulations, you don't need help, you know it all. The 10-20% that get Bronze -- or worse, don't even get Bronze -- can identify what they need to work on. Believe it or not, some of the adult volunteers weren't Scouts as youth and haven't spent decades working in Scouting -- they want their boys to have as much opportunity to excel as we do.

 

I think National is placing too much emphasis on computer records and metrics. It smacks to me of the professional educators (as opposed to actual teachers) or bureaucrats but let's not dog them just because people at the top of their game learn little from this exercise.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Hico,

 

 

That's an excellent post, in my view.

 

 

My district hasn't used the JTE results to look for weak units in need of help --- perhaps we should, although I think weak units are not a secret to district leaders.

 

Personally, I think weak JTE results are best if they motivate weak units to concentrate on identifying and improving weak parts of their program. I'm not sure if that is what is happening, but it would be good if it did.

[HICO_Eagle]

Thanks Seattle. I agree, council and the units themselves may know they're weak but not necessarily HOW weak or specifically which areas could use improvement. I am probably one of the worst offenders on this board for complaining about National and new requirements or new paperwork but it just seemed to me that some of these posts were a little off-base. When we discussed JTE at my district's Roundtable last year we specifically noted that this was intended both to motivate units and identify specific areas of improvement that National thought was important.