Adult leaders who were never Scouts......

[Eagledad]

Eagles are at a disadvantage from my observations. You only have to read the last few post to see the pedestal Eagle are put on just from the title. If an Eagle does well, then all Eagles do well. If an Eagle did bad, then all Eagles are bad.

 

You have to feel sorry for Eagles because once they are found out, everyone tells them they should be the leader. It doesnt matter if they have the time, experience or enthusiasm for the job, theyre an Eagle, and they should lead. I once tried to talk an Eagle Tiger dad out of being a Tiger leader because I wanted him to save his enthusiasm for Webelos. But the pressure was too much and sadly he was gone by Webelos. He wasnt the superman folks think of Eagles. He burned out just like many of the other men and women who started at Tigers.

 

I have watched several Eagles reluctantly step into a position they couldnt wait to leave just because of the pressure to be a leader and the left with in the year. Just like anyone else, those with enthusiasm do better than those without it.

 

And I cant count the number of Eagles that were expected to take over the SM job as soon as their sons crossed over only to not join at all because they didnt want the SM job.

 

Give the Eagles a break.

 

I have worked with hundreds of adult leaders and the reality is you cant peg the future performance of most adults by their past experiences of life. Oh there as some basic principles that hold true. Ive already mentioned I observed that all other things being equal, an adult with no scouting experience will struggle to lead a quality program equal to an adult with a youth scouting experience.

 

I have personally worked with and trained several female scoutmasters and honestly none of them were very good. But I have also worked with and trained several male SMs that didnt have any youth scouting experience either and they were just as bad. I dont think it was a gender thing. Im know there are a few good female SMs out there because I have met them here on the forum, but I have not met one in person yet. Our Council does have good luck with quality female Wood Badge Coordinators. Maybe thats because they are well experienced by that time.

 

I have also worked with some really bad SMs who were Eagles. And I guess a couple folks on this forum think quality Scout leaders are determined by how much money they earn, but I never saw that. Rich or poor, quality was in the soul, not the pocket book.

 

Im sure there are a lot of other personal experiences out there to propose opinions, but I would hope it was based more from many experiences instead of the one. Truth is we are more a like than we realize and we dont know how well we will perform as BSA scout Leaders until we get in the middle of it all. I think most folks are surprised.

 

Barry

 

[Get Outdoors]

 

It doesn't matter if your were a scout or an Eagle scout. At the end of the day you have chosen to guide and mentor our youth. Nothing else matters and you shouldn't care how others judge you.

[Engineer61]

I guess it depends on if the Adult has a fundamental knowledge of things that he will have to be able to do as an Adult leader...

 

... does he know how to camp safely?

 

... does he have some knowledge of water safety/can he swim?

 

... does he have a basic knowledge of first aid?

 

... is he in good enough health to handle all the physical aspects?

 

The Scouting specific stuff can be learned...I suppose, but the common sense stuff relate to the outdoor aspect should already be there.

 

I think it important for potential adult leaders to know precisely what there knowledge base and limitations are and to underestimate (not overestimate) his own capabilities.

 

I would never consider it...I don't have the outdoor knowledge to be responsible for 10-12 kids, I don't have the physical capabilities either.

[kari_cardi]

I learned to camp, swim and give first aid as an adult, and some of it while a scout leader. I don't think those skills need to be present for an adult to become a good leader. I think they can be learned, as can scouting methods, if an individual is motivated. The hardest thing to learn, IMO, is how to work with children and young adults, both your own and others.

 

I do agree that good leaders know and respect their limitations and capabilities.

[PaulSafety]

First, thank you to everyone who participates in scouting -- you're doing important work and it benefits a lot of people: youth, the community, your COR's, et.al. Together, professionals and volunteers, eagles and "wasn't a scout until now", WE make the scouting program work.

 

Second, just want to point out that Baden Powell, William D. Boyce, James West, Ernest Seton, and Dan Beard and many other "notables" contributed an awful lot of "good stuff" to make scouting what it is today -- and they were "Adult leaders who were never Scouts as a youth!"

 

A) don't let other scouters put you down -- that's not in keeping with scouting ideals -- and

B) if you feel the need, just remind them that B-P wasn't an eagle, didn't complete arrow of light requirements, etc. and he did just fine.

C) continue to take advantage of training and develop support networks -- the minute any of us believes that "we have all the answers" is either the time to take a break, or spend more time helping others who are still learning (and don't we all keep learning our whole life?"

 

Great conversation.

[acco40]

I actually think it is better to have an understanding of child development than it is to have a youth experience in Scouting to make a good Scouter with direct contact with the boys (SM, SA, CM, DL, etc.).

 

I participated as Cub Scout (Wolf to Lion) before moving to a different state and not continuing on with the program. However, I was lucky to have had the opportunity to camp every summer with three friends who were all Boy Scouts. I thought it was strange to clean dishes with three pans instead of two but hey, I went with the flow.

 

As a Den leader five years and a Scoutmaster for seven years, I thought my strength was knowing how children develop, what was appropriate at what ages and a genuine interest in the boys. I had a love of the outdoors and took all the required and supplemental training the BSA had to offer but outdoor skills, while much better than the average adult, were not as good as my other skills.

 

When you get right down to it, the first aid, camping, orienteering, pioneering and other basic skills one needs to know as a Scouter are really fairly basic. Could I perform an appendectomy with a spoon in the field? No. But, my skills were never found wanting in over 250 days of camping over that time. My patience sometimes was tried, 95% of the time by the adults, not the youth.

[Eamonn]

While having the skills is a big help.

Most of these can be learned if your willing to learn them.

Sadly a lot of new guys who were never Scouts don't take the time. But that's for another thread.

All the best Scout Leaders I've ever met have more than just skills. They have "It"!

"It" is hard to explain or give a name to, but they have it.

Part of it is in the way they communicate with Scouts. They never ever talk down to a Lad, but they don't use jargon that boys don't get. They carry themselves in such a way that when a Lad talks to them the Lad can tell from their body language that he has the full attention of the Leader.

The leader has this look in his eye that lets the Lad know that he is interested in what is being said and that he is important and what he is saying has importance.

The adult Leader who has "It" can challenge Scouts and sell Scouts on new ideas or old ideas with a twist, making the mundane chores that get in the way and need done seem to fall into place and just get done.

The Adult Leader who has it has found ways of taking as much enjoyment from a Scout or a group of Scouts accomplishing something as they get. Even though the adult Leader has done it many times and seen other Scouts or groups of Scouts do the same thing many times.

While of course the Adult Leader who has it is not a grinning fool, he will most times see the funny side of things even when things are not going well, he will lead with a smile and the Scouts buy into his reassurances, even though he might not utter a word.

The Adult Leader who has it, never seems to have a problem with discipline. He accepts that there are times when even with the best of plans and planning things will go wrong. He has the respect of the Scouts, he also respects them. When someone does something that they know is wrong they also know that they have let themselves down and the trust that was placed upon them.

The Adult Leader who has it is not by any means a push over. He cares way too much to allow poor discipline get in the way of the good that is going on.

The Adult Leader who has it is good at planning he likes the idea that everyone knows what is going on. He has found ways of having the youth leaders slow down a little and take the time to map things out and write their plans down.

Most of all the Adult Leader who has it has never forgotten what it was like to be a boy. He understands boys, he uses this understanding to ensure that what is being done is fun, he isn't afraid of letting his hair down and allowing the Scouts to see that he is also having fun and he wants them to join in and share the enjoyment that he is having.

 

I've been spoiled many of the Adult Leaders I had as a Scout had many of these qualities, but I've seen people in other youth groups who aren't Scouts do much the same thing.

While I'm all for female leaders, I do think that having never been a boy does put them at a disadvantage.

I have friends and have had friends who were very gifted when it came to skills but they just didn't have "It". Two of these guys were my assistants truly wonderful men, good at what they did, but the Scouts just didn't see "It" in them and knew it just wasn't there.

I'm not sure if "It" can be learned?

I tend to think not.

I like to think that maybe at one time I was close? But as I get older I'm finding that I don't have the patience I used to have and that I'm maybe becoming more judgmental than I once was?

Patience is of course needed when working with young Lads and being judgmental gets in the way.

Ea.

[Tampa Turtle]

As an Adult Leader who were never Scouts (can we get a snappier acronym please!) there are some advantages. If you just learned something it can be easier to teach sometimes; i.e. "yes, I had trouble with that until I held this way, etc". Also as some have suggested rusty skills may not be all that useful. Some of our best leaders have not been scouts but were outdoorsman and military types with good skills.

 

In my limited observation the biggest strength of the ex-scout adult is when they came from a good "classic" program that was boy-led and is willing to bring that vision to the Troop. Also guys who remember having fun...

[mikecummings157]

Having previous scouting experience is helpful as a foundation, but it doesn't make you a good (or bad) leader. Some of the best leaders in our troop had no scouting experience as youth, but have been willing to learn as they go, including going through the required training that so many folks on this board complain about.

 

Also, some of the absolute worst leaders we have had in our troop had extensive scouting experience, up to becoming Eagle Scouts. Some folks get too stuck in "the way it used to be", become inflexible, and drive scouts and leaders away.

 

I tell potential adult recruits that all they need to get started is a willingness to be there for the boys and we can teach them the rest.

 

Having adults without scouting eperience increases the diversity of the unit, which is a good thing.

 

For the sake of full disclosure, I fall into the category of having a Scouting background (Eagle 1979)

 

I used to be an Owl.....

[mikecummings157]

Having previous scouting experience is helpful as a foundation, but it doesn't make you a good (or bad) leader. Some of the best leaders in our troop had no scouting experience as youth, but have been willing to learn as they go, including going through the required training that so many folks on this board complain about.

 

Also, some of the absolute worst leaders we have had in our troop had extensive scouting experience, up to becoming Eagle Scouts. Some folks get too stuck in "the way it used to be", become inflexible, and drive scouts and leaders away.

 

I tell potential adult recruits that all they need to get started is a willingness to be there for the boys and we can teach them the rest.

 

Having adults without scouting eperience increases the diversity of the unit, which is a good thing.

 

For the sake of full disclosure, I fall into the category of having a Scouting background (Eagle 1979)

 

I used to be an Owl.....

[JoeBob]

Hmmmmm...

 

How much of a stretch is it to say that:

 

An Adult Leader Never a Scout's most important challenge is to achieve a Boy-Led Troop with little adult input. (Not having the deep woods background makes Leadership Skills a more comfortable field for ALNS.)

 

- and -

 

A Former Scout now a Leader's most inportant goal is to teach good woodsmanship? (It's hard to justify putting emphasis on woodscraft when increasing urbanization makes woods skill less valuable - law of diminishing marginal utility...)

[JMHawkins]

A Former Scout now a Leader's most inportant goal is to teach good woodsmanship? (It's hard to justify putting emphasis on woodscraft when increasing urbanization makes woods skill less valuable - law of diminishing marginal utility...)

 

JoeBob, I disagree about woodcraft having less utility today. Getting the Scouts out in the woods and learning how to take care of themselves and have fun in the sticks is a means to an end. The end is good character, citizenship, etc, not turning out a bunch of Mountain Men. It's just that camping, backpacking, canoeing, etc. are great ways to develop those good things. It's still every bit as relevant today as it was 100 years ago. In fact, (wasn't this in a thread a while back?) B-P created Scouting in large part because urbanized youth were increasingly cut off from "natural" outdoor experiences, and he thought it was important to get them back out into the woods for the sake of their mental, emotional and physical development.

[JoeBob]

JMH: I hope like the Dickens that you are right!

[clemlaw]

>>>>>Then he asked those who achieved Eagle to remain standing. All I can remember thinking at that time is how I have been to about 30 Roundtables, staffed 4 district camping events, attended 6 or 7 district or council camporees, and served two years as District Popcorn Chairman. Why have I never met any of you?

[SeattlePioneer]

I was never in Boy Scouts as a youth, and was a Cub Scout dropout after a few weeks ---- never got the craft stuff Den Mothers tended to go for circa 1958.

 

My outdoor background consisted of in excess of 3,000 miles of backpacking, cross country skiing, snowshoeing and completing the Seattle Mountaineers Basic and Intermediate climbing courses, which also required completing Wilderness First Aid, plus some rock a glacier climbing.

 

With that background, I was an AS for a year and SM for five more years. Scout adult leader training easily taught me the methods of Scouting.

 

The experience I had in outdoor skills would be a lot harder for someone to duplicate. A lot of it is judgment, experience and confidence that training can't duplicate by itself.

 

On the other hand, the Scout leader training and understanding the methods of Scouting is the heart of the program.

 

Both are important.

 

If I had to make a choice, I'd take the Scout Leader training and learn the outdoors stuff along with the boys.