What to do with parent(s)

[chaoman45]

We honestly need a "Dealing with Parents" section on this forum.

 

Anyway, part hypothetical and part reality.

 

Our troop has two Scoutmasters - the head honcho and the assistant. Some parents believe we need more than just two for a troop of 30. Generally, I agree, but the parents are what seasoned Scouters would call "helicopter parents," or at very least just plain annoying to Scouts. Recently the SM made a ballot asking Scouts if we need more ASMs. A few parents took it upon themselves to lobby/advertise themselves.

 

"What are you guys voting for?"

"Probably 'no.'"

"Oh. You should say 'yes.'"

 

Nevertheless, only two votes believed we needed more ASMs. The Scouts' vote will be used for consideration, not a determinant. Still, it's clear the Scouts really don't like these adults, even though they're very active. They do typically have good intentions, but they're a bit... excessively eager?

 

That's the story. My question is how to deal with these parents? Basically, they self-appointed themselves as ASM without SM or CO say-so. SM doesn't like conflict, so he doesn't say much against it, but the CC (former SM) is pissed. What do?

[Beavah]

Hiya chaoman45.

 

I always tell units that yeh must select unit leaders, and the moment yeh get away from actually, thoughtfully, carefully selecting unit leaders and assistant unit leaders it will bite you.

 

Da second thing I tell 'em is that when selecting unit leaders it's vitally important that yeh really take time to listen to the kids.

 

Da reason is simple. Boys see how adults behave when no other adults are watching. Yeh compromise safety and the very existence of the unit if yeh don't take the boys' comments deadly seriously. The boys who tell yeh they are "uncomfortable" with an adult are speakin' a warning as loud and clear as they can to yeh. Take 'em at their word.

 

I think yeh need the CC and SM and ASM to thread the needle a bit here, eh? Yeh want enthusiastic, supportive parents. As committee members. Find 'em some jobs to do, push 'em into training. And then some more training. And then down the road, if they've demonstrated a real understanding of the program, and a genuine ability to listen to kids and allow kids to lead, then maybe consider an application for ASM.

 

Yeh can do that in a low-key, friendly, non-threatening way. But yeh must do it.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

KEEP THOSE PARENTS BUSY IN THEIR OWN CAMPSITE AND AWAY FROMT HE SCOUTS.

 

And yes i am shouting at the top of my lungs

 

Seriously a few ideas as I may be dealing with the situation in the very near future.

 

1)Get the adults to training ASAP. While training is not the end all be all cure, it may help. If the parents can understand what is going on, as painful as it may be for them to watch 'organized chaos" they may get it.

 

2)Orient them to the troop's culture, and Boy Scouts in general. Every troop is different so in addition to the general info, talk specific about the troop. io'd go so far as to use some scenes from FOLLOW ME BOYS.

 

3) When camping assign duties to them just as a PL assigns duties to the patrol members. that should keep them busy and out of the scouts' hair. Then organize activities for them to keep them busy.

 

4) keep repeating the following phrases: " train them, trust them, let them lead, " and "Have you asked your PL/SPL?" sothat the parents know what is expected.

[chaoman45]

Beavah - One of the problem dads has 20 years of experience under his belt and is also an Eagle. He has taken the training, yet still has a hard time being in good graces. When you say training, do you mean ASM-specific training? I'm sure that's doable.

 

Eagle92- I think they're still under the influence of Webelos III because they cite "safety concerns" for a reason for sticking around. You're right though - they need to trust Scouts more.

[Tampa Turtle]

THAT is the biggest missing piece of Scout Master training. Not to vilify parents but to get them to back off. I was doing "sign offs" on some Advancement and my MB last night at the Troop meeting and it drove me nuts how some moms and dads just hovered within earshot: "oh, oh he did that!".

 

I don't mind them asking me what counts and what doesn't to help accommodate a boys needs (like what Troop activities might conflict with family holiday plans) but let the boys talk to me on my own.

 

Yeah I sometimes see parents tell boys how to vote...I am no longer shy about gently telling them to let the boys make their own mistakes --this isn't about efficiency.

[chaoman45]

Tampa Turtle - Oh, we've tried telling parents to let boys make mistakes. Some agreed and backed down, but the vocal ones?

 

"BUT HOW FAR DO WE GO?!"

"WHAT IF THEY HURT THEMSELVES?"

"WE DON'T WANT TO INVITE A LAWSUIT!"

 

I use caps because they literally raise their voices in opposition to suggestion.

 

I could spend days contemplating on how far boy-led should go before adults intervene. Typically, I speak up when there's an immediate threat like pouring leaves on a fire in a wood cabin. Sometimes I might ask about undercooked food, but don't usually say much unless they're First-year Scouts who don't know better (the older boys can eat blue meat and learn that it sucks). But again, good sense and trust are determining factors, really. Scouts hurt themselves - nuff said. And the lawsuit thing makes me mad because of how sue-happy we've become as a society. But since the oldest Scout is 14, it raises red flags with newer parents.

 

My favourite quote is:

 

"The Scouts seem like they're avoiding us on campouts. Not just by happenstance, but intentionally trying to get away from us!"

 

No **** . That's the first indication of a problem.

[Tampa Turtle]

I would say the best defense is a good offense:

 

1) Put 'em to work. That scares off the casual hang-around types.

2) Insist that they get trained. That gets rid of a bunch of others that will not commit the time.

3) I agree ASM's need time to transition from Webelos to Scouting. I didn't big mistake.

4) Don't be afraid to "reason" with a toxic parent.

 

We try to move the physical location of the boys at the meetings. Start at flag pole, move to chuch rec center, break into patrols, etc. A lot of kibitzing parents can't keep up.

 

Do all this and you have the problem parents down to a more manageable level.

[Tampa Turtle]

"BUT HOW FAR DO WE GO?!"

"WHAT IF THEY HURT THEMSELVES?"

"WE DON'T WANT TO INVITE A LAWSUIT!"

 

Chaoman,

 

Well determining that line is why we get paid the big bucks. I wish I knew. I am only a "sophomore" leader. It is easier with other kids. I would say:

 

"BUT HOW FAR DO WE GO?!"

We (adults) are there for safety and emergencies. Also for transportation and facilitating events (like reservations and credit cards). We can offer suggestions and intervene if a boy is going to do something stupid like blow themselves up with a stove, throw knives at each other etc. Even in that case we should have taught them better.

 

We are not there to make it easy or entertain them. Screwing up a tent setup is not an emergency. Forgetting to plan for enough food is reason to step in for Webelos but not Boy Scouts. Let 'em screw up.

 

"WHAT IF THEY HURT THEMSELVES?"

Little hurts -OK. We have had boys get grease burns and knife cuts. If they are camping there is some risk. Yeah I worry about this stuff A LOT. I think the G2SS has some good advice; for example, the buddy boats have helped us alot when boys do waterstuff. We follow the safe swim stuff pretty consistently and yeah we probably "overload" with adults on some trips. Depends on the age of the boys.

 

At camp a boy broke his leg running to the dining hall across the wet grass. Bummer but not the end of the year.

 

Still easy to say we have not had a serious injury (other than MY boys) in a while. But I worry a lot.

 

"WE DON'T WANT TO INVITE A LAWSUIT!"

Wellll...if you didn't figure this out as a leader you are making yourself more vulnerable than the average guy. Follow the BSA guidelines and you will get (hopefully) protected by BSA Legal. Go cowboy and take your chances.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Heh, heh! Where is Kudu with some guidance on this issue?

[Tampa Turtle]

Oh dang walked right into that!

 

Like I said on another thread you can measure the quality of the patrols in our Troop by how far they camp from the adults. Just as well don't trust some of those close-in folks.

[Engineer61]

You know ... I was just thinking ... in spite of comments that so many of you are happy that I'm not a parent in your troops...I really think you'd like me compared to some that you have.

 

1) I keep my mouth shut.

 

2) I only attend CoH's if my Scout is getting something...and I stand in the back away from everyone so I don't get in the way of the untreated-ADHD induced chaos that is called Scouting.

 

3) I don't go on campouts, hikes or advancement days.

 

I just don't trust any of the adults farther than I can throw them...so I pay close attention to everything my Scout says.

 

Seems like I'm the perfect Scout parent... LOL(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

[Lisabob]

OK am I the only one who thinks the SM was asking for trouble by having an actual ballot? I mean, really? Maybe it is my inner-political scientist, but he's just begging for manipulation, here. I am in no way shocked that attempted manipulation is what he got. Even holding the vote is manipulation of sorts so he can hide behind "what the youth want" instead of just saying NO.

 

Look, we should absolutely listen to youth voices when it comes to who they are/aren't comfortable with. We should NOT be ceding decisions about whether to have more ASMs, or how many to have, to youth. Those decisions get made by the CO or, in their absence, probably by the CC & SM.

 

As for your over-eager parents: give them something to do that isn't ASM-like. You need something hauled, stored, picked up from a store, taken to council, etc.? Grab Mr or Mrs Helicopter and ask them to do it. Ask them enough and either they'll prove to be useful, or they'll get tired of running errands for the troop and back off.

 

When pressed by adults who want to be helicopter ASMs, you could always just smile and say "we've got our positions filled right now, thanks." Or, "it is nice of you to offer." And walk away.

 

(On the flip side - I am reminded of a recent thread about troops that turn away young adults who offer their assistance, and the consensus was that that was nuts. So I guess there does need to be some balance here, too. Turning away all comers is as bad an idea as making all new scout parents into ASMs.)

 

 

[qwazse]

Had an Eagle SMC last night the SM and 4 ASMs were in attendance. This boy had a some really good ideas. (Advantage of waiting until you're 17 for that Eagle: you got some solid opinions and the maturity to put them out there when a bunch of adults are listening.) So, I asked him point blank about the # of ASMs in our troop. He said sometimes it causes a little confusion, but more often it's nice to have so many different direct-contact adults around.

 

Point is, it's not the number of ASMs that's your problem. It's the quality of ASM's. I think it's perfectly fine to say you don't want to add another 21+ ASM until he/she has served as a committee member a couple of years, completed IOLS and whatever other training you think is relevant for what your troop does, AND they've shown a track record of hanging back from the boys on outings or activities. (At the SM's discretion, you may fast-track the one who keeps the coffee hot and dishes in the adult's site.)

[Scoutfish]

" Basically, they self-appointed themselves as ASM without SM or CO say-so. "

 

Time to hold a meeting with trhese self apointed people and explain to them that - in just acting thisway, trhey hyave completely shown they are not worthy to be leaders as they just bent, broke or violated the rules, the intent of the program and what it takes to be a leader .

 

Then tell them they bcan appoint themselves as newly retired from their self appointed positions or they can be kicked out...their choice!

[Twocubdad]

A polysci major myself, I'm with LisaBob. The ballot comes under the heading of "What the Heck Are You Thinking??" There is no possible upside to that.

 

But here's a thought/question: A SM and one ASM for 30 boys strikes me as very thin. It would be thin if you only had 5 scouts -- no back up, no down time, no weekends off. Is the problem that with only two trained leaders the troop is forced to rely on the untrained helicopter parents to fill the roles trained ASMs should have?

 

So maybe these parents aren't the people you want. But maybe they could be trained to become the right people. Or maybe you go out and recruit community volunteers to the job. It seems to me you have an adult leadership vacuum which is sucking-in the parents. Fill the vacuum and avoid the problems