ATV, PWC Become Authorized Council-Level Programs

[Lisabob]

Question: Are there rules about who is allowed to teach these courses? I can see a pilot program being exceptionally well run because it is small and hand-picked. I cannot see allowing some 16-17-18 year old counselor to "teach" these classes to other children, though. But we know how many camp programs are staffed (by available bodies), and that would worry me.

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

I don't see the difference between these and the motorboat or Water Sking MBs. I'm big into teaching safety at a youing age and I see a real positive impact for teaching safety here. My kids and I still use the Water Sking safety rules I learned earning the MB at age 13.

 

Barry

[EagleBeaver]

Many Point Scout Camp offered the PWC program this past summer and it's on the schedule for 2012. 152 scouts participated this summer.

See the 2012 flyer at http://manypoint.org/files/Water%20Sports%20Outpost%20reservation%20form.pdf

See a video at -

 

Looks like a lot of fun with many purposes - operating PWC safely, taking responsibility, following rules, building independence - pretty similar to horses, bikes, sailboats, canoes, kayaks, motorboats.

 

Scout On

[Basementdweller]

While the initial ATV's were donated. I don't believe that Honda or suzuki is going to donate 5,000 atv's to the BSA for camps acrossed the country. The camps that did not participate in the trial will have to purchase them. $25 dollar up charge is very reasonable but I don't think you can keep the program afloat doing that.

 

Our council camps are in horrible shape, needing new kybos, shower houses and swimming pools repaired. So now we are adding ATV maintenance and trail maintenance to the equation.

 

A question for those who participated in the program or had boys who did.......Where were the trails and how much of the camp did they consume?????

 

This has nothing to do with I didn't do it as a scout......

[trainerlady]

Basement,

 

I hear you on much needed camp repairs, we too have camps that need repairs. I see these programs as being something additional for councils to offer to make themselves unique in the crowd of camps. The camps that were pilots obviously have it made they have the equipment. Those that wish to add the programs can do so if they can afford it or get manufacturers or dealers to help them out.

 

I don't think the intent of allowing councils to run the programs was for every camp to have ATV/PWC. Some camps just aren't suited to their use. It is just another option to drum up business. Another way to keep the older boys coming to camp. It maybe a leverage tool to get troops that always go to the same camp on the same week, in the same site to re-think where they go every 3-4 years. My troop has gone to the same MB mill, on the same week at the same site for over 15 years. As a result no one in the troop over 15 goes to camp. 3-4 years there and you've done it all including a 50 mile canoe trek.

 

If I could get into a PLC meeting and tell the boys that a pilot site is less than 2 hours from home (regular camp is almost 4 hours away) and only costs $55 extra I think they'd jump at the opportunity to go there for a year. I can't get the info to the PLC so all I can do is make Son aware of the options and have him share at a SMC or BOR with the adults. Luckily for Son he can't attend camp with his troop this year, family obilgation. He'll attend a pilot site with a friend's troop a few weeks later. Maybe first hand experience and pictures will make the PLC think about it.

 

FWIW, I think councils place too much pressure on units to stay in council to go to summer camp. I get the whole support your council camp bit. But if only half the troop goes because the program hasn't changed in years and the older boys have been there done that what good does it do? Get most/all the kids to go to a new place once in a while and everyone will be better off.

[Beavah]

Yah, about time. And it's a happy thing to see some useless restrictions lifted for a change.

 

Kids 'round these parts use snowmobiles and ATVs and JetSkis all the time. They'll continue to use 'em, in Scouting or outside of Scouting. Only difference is that one of 'em puts them in Scouting. And honestly, much like water safety or shooting sports safety or climbing safety or whatnot, having the opportunity to teach 'em the right way to handle stuff is a lifelong gift to them, and a gift for a longer life! Most of us have seen good-citizen ATV users and bad-citizen ATV users too, eh? So I reckon raisin' some more lads to be good citizen types also meets our mission.

 

My only complaint is the limit to council-level programming. In my experience, council-level programming is hit-or-miss, and certainly no better than unit-level programming. As folks have mentioned, a pilot program is just a pilot, and usually has a lot more resource (human and gear) invested than what will really be present when an initiative like this goes "live". I see it being more likely that councils will cut corners or misallocate resources, because they feel they "have" to run it for marketing reasons. Also, council staff don't really know the boys, and the boys don't have long-term ties, so yeh have higher risk of behavior issues. For units, by and large when they do this stuff it's with a professional outfitter, and they usually only approach it when several of da adults in the unit have genuine experience.

 

So if I were King, I'd have come at it da other way, the way they did with climbing, and offer the option for unit-based programs first. Probably safer, higher-quality, and councils could then tap that unit expertise to help build a council program if desired. Da current management only thinks top-down, however.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Twocubdad]

This isn't a mandatory program, ya know. If your council is spending money on ATVs and PWCs but at the same time has holes in the dining hall roof and stuff running out the back of the latines, the problem isn't that national has authorized a new program.

 

I don't know what is in the camp standards for these programs, but I do have some knowledge of the criteria on which the pilot sites were selected. Suitable location was a big factor. The camps had to have dedicated areas for ATV use -- they can't mix hikers with ATVs. LNT was a concern, too. Substantial water access was required for the PWCs. I believe E92's camp is on the Pamlico Sound, for example. Councils also had to submit financial plans for the programs and I can tell you they all did no rely on donated equipment.

 

These programs are simply two more arrows the summer camp quiver. Some will use them, some won't. Some camps won't have the facilities for them. Some won't have the money or staff. Some will give the programs a try and find them not to be a good fit. Some will turn them into signature programs for their camp. How is this different from anything else?

[Tampa Turtle]

Initially I do not like the ATV, PWC idea. I see too many Yahoos in Florida with the Jet Ski's ruin a perfectly nice time by the beach. I think they are loud and obtrusive to the outdoors. I am not sure how one reconciles ATV's with LNT.

 

However it is a good argument to teach boys to learn to use them safely and lawfully. And I know my sons loved doing the Motor Boating MB.

[SeattlePioneer]

 

For those late to the discussion:

 

PWC = Personal Watercraft aka jet skis.

 

ATV = All terrain vehicle aka four wheelers.

 

 

I was a Camp Commissioner at a Boy Scout Camp last summer. One of the popular troop activities was "canoe swamping." A troop would sign up for time at the beach and take out canoes and compete in swamping each others canoes. That seemed to be very popular, a vigorous physical activity and a lot of fun. How does that compare as a Scout activity with revving up a PWC and jetting about a lake or bay?

 

Another activity at the Scout Camp was bicycline along trails and over obstacles. Again that took a good deal of fitness and energy and developed (perhaps cycling skills of some kind). How does that compare as a quality Scout activity with roaring around on an ATV?

 

National wants to promote healthy Scouts, which tends to mean more physical activity among other things. PWC and ATV seems to promote relatively passive engine driven activities.

 

I don't doubt a lot of Scouts would prefer jetting about on a PWC to rowing, canoeing, sailing or canoe swamping. But is it really desireable to offer that choice which will tend to pinch out those other activities?

 

 

[SSScout]

As has been said, this is "one more arrow in the quiver".

 

Same arguments might be heard about the Council Camps that offer ocean going yawls or rock climbing as a regular activity (not just a "special"). Now, I might wonder if Polaris or Yamaha might be thinking, here's a way to introduce future ATV purchasers to the sport.

Oh, wait. We have a National Jamboree site that will have rock climbing and WWRafting as side lines. Mebbe a motor trail too?

Ah! I got it... figure eight racing in dad's old Nova....

[Basementdweller]

Beavah.....you can't honestly believe that a troop program of ATV's will be safer and better than the councils??????? It might be better because you can actually take a trip and camp in a backcountry area designated for ORV recreation as a troop.......

 

ASM's and Scouts of means showing up with $15k quads. How long before camporees become quad rodeos?????

 

I know a number of very testosterone laden ASM's who already own very expensive quads that are capable of speeds near 80 mph.

 

 

So you think adult scouters and scouts can get lost on foot????? Put them on a motorized vehicle and see how lost they can get.......Bad manners in the back country on foot...on ATV's it will be worse yet.....

 

I like the idea, just not sure how it is going to get paid for...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

If Polaris or Yamaha want to donate $$$ to BSA we will see ATV trails all over the Summit.

[Beavah]

Beavah.....you can't honestly believe that a troop program of ATV's will be safer and better than the councils???????

 

Sure I can. I think what's remarkable is to believe that council programs will be safer and better than unit programs. Da council staff are typically young folk, don't know the boys or families, and they usually don't know as much about an activity as a competent adult hobbyist. I think da BSA had it right with climbing, where they limited council programs but not unit programs. In a unit, yeh can limit "high adventure" based on youth behavior/maturity in ways that yeh can't with a council program, and unit programs almost always use real professional outfitters instead of loosely trained BSA volunteers. You'll also find that da adult/scout ratio is much higher in unit programs. That fellow with da pricey four-wheeler is goin' to watch his baby a lot closer than the council guy tryin' to keep track of 10 boys on gear he didn't pay for.

 

Put another way, an average fellow in da BSA teachin' his son to shoot is goin' to do a better, safer job than a council volunteer tryin' to teach 12 boys he doesn't know.

 

That's why camps need additional layers of regulation and formality, eh? Because when you're dealin' with a wide-open population that yeh don't know in advance, and a high scout:instructor ratio, yeh have to try to make up for that loss of safety and control in artificial ways.

 

Now, personally, I agree with yeh with respect to ATVs. I think they are loud and obnoxious and do horrific trail damage, and generally aren't compatible with LNT or a wilderness ethic outside of SAR operations. But on private land, with good instruction and equipment, they can be fun. I'm less upset by Jet-Skis. As a sailor, they're just one more type of stinkpot on da water, and all stinkpots are pretty much da same.

 

Beavah

 

[Tampa Turtle]

Beavah,

 

I think scouts should be allowed Exocet MB practice on PWC...

[Twocubdad]

Again, I don't know what the final camp standards look like, but the ATV instructor had some national instructor certification and the course taught was a very tightly controlled national certification syllabus. My guess it the requirements councils receive from national are similar to what you seen in the SCUBA program in terms of meeting requirements from recognized certification organizations.

 

I would also assume, Beav, that we're a LOOOONG way from troops jumping on their own ATVs or PWCs and riding off into the sunset.