xmas party contigent on community service

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm... speaking of "human"

 

I have a policy that CalicoPenn is not allowed to post any more. That is my policy. I've written it down on the back of form I happened to have sitting on my desk about filing deadlines.

 

Just because I happen to have written a policy for CalicoPenn on the back of an unrelated form does not mean that CalicoPenn must, or even should, stop posting. I've expressed my personal position, perhaps, but in actual fact I have no authority or cognizable interest in CalicoPenn's actions, and because we live in a free society, CalicoPenn can keep posting. I can call him names, accuse him of policy-breaking and violating made up oaths and such, but that means exactly... nothing.

 

Fact is, "policy" or not, scouts across this great land of ours routinely, as troops and even as councils, raise money for causes outside of scouting, or contribute council funds to other local NFPs. We send goods to the troops. We support disaster relief. We raise money for goods and services in at least half of our Eagle projects. We've supported (indeed, we had a hand in founding) United Way. Doin' so is simply a part of citizenship and service, and we've featured many such efforts on da pages of Boy's Life, Scouting Magazine, and other promotional materials.

 

As with all things, there's a balance, eh? There are edge cases where we want to be clear that the BSA, as an entity, is not necessarily supporting something even though a CO or a unit is. The BSA has an interest in maintaining its image and trademarks. But that's it. Just because lawyers sometimes write expansive language to protect against such edge cases doesn't mean diddly. Well, beyond da lawyers being a bit inexperienced or lazy.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[FScouter]

"Various BSA officials will say all kinds of things. Even the darndest things sometimes . Mostly they're doin' their best, but they're human like everybody else."

 

Applies to well-meaning Scouters and forum members as well...

 

As the Beav says, units "can" do anything they want, and there are no BSA cops to enforce Scouting policies. If units want to raise money for other charities, they "can" certainly do so. But the practice is clearly against BSA policies and that is clearly stated in the publications and the unit money-earning application.

 

The point is that a group of uniformed Scouts ringing the Salvation Army bell, or otherwise raising money on behalf of some other group, charitible or otherwise, implies to the public that there is a partnership or some kind of connection between the two when in fact there is none.

 

So go ahead and do that anyway if you want, but please don't tell us it is proper or allowed or not against policy.

[Tampa Turtle]

I just saw some brownies and girl scouts ringing bells last night. I do not recall the world ending; just seemed like they were doin' a good deed and having fun.

[moosetracker]

Well obviously none of us can follow every tidbit of rules or guidelines put out be BSA, or there would be no time left for scouting.. We all aim to do our best on what we think is important for a well rounded unit (and none of us can even agree on that).. Other things we look at as guidelines..

 

So full uniform, part uniform, H-ll with the uniform!

emblems just so, emblems kind-of sorta so, H-ll with the emblems!..

Boy run, adult run, somewhere in-between..

Elections for POR, Elections after Adults have wittled down who is elegable, no elections..

Eagle Mill scouting - back-to-roots-scouting..

Committees all registered, Parents meetings, All can vote only registered members..

All members trained.. No members trained.. Somewhere in-between..

Use on registered merit badge councilors, use MBC approved by the troop whether registered or not.

Follow the no laser gun/water pistol rules - have unofficial scout groupings and do them anyway.

Fill out the Tour planning or Unit fund-raising App. everytime needed, when you remember to, never..

 

Except for a some YP rules and their uptight rules about gays and atheists.. Every unit has their uniqueness because no one interprets things the same way, or chooses what are rules, what are guidelines, and what they will follow and what they wont..

 

 

[Scoutfish]

"I have a policy that CalicoPenn is not allowed to post any more. "

 

Yeah, but there are a couple differences:

1) This is not your site.

 

2) You are not a partial owner, person in charge, or even a governing board member of this website.

 

3) Calico didn't sign a written agreement declaring he is going to abide by, uphold, and to follow your rules while wearing the uniform of or being a member in good standing of your organazation- in order to be a part of your organazation

 

" Fact is, "policy" or not, scouts across this great land of ours routinely, as troops and even as councils, raise money for causes outside of scouting, or contribute council funds to other local NFPs. "

 

Fact is, people commit murder, rob banks, break the speed limit , commit insurance fraud, and lie too.

 

But just because they do it does not make it right.

 

Just because people break policy does not mean the policy is wronmg or shopuld be ignored.

 

Some of my Webelos scouts have been seen to act more mature than some of the older scouts. Maybe I'll just break policy, tell them they are now Eagle scouts and and hand them a beer or two.

 

I mean, all the rules and requirements are just a dumb policy and BSA cannot really do anything about it right?

 

Drinking age? ....well. didn't I mention how mature they are?

 

[Nike]

Tampa T:

 

It's a good thing that no one from the local GS Council saw the girls doing that, or lots of inboxes would be very full today. Girl Scouts can not raise funds for others without specific permission from National. The girls can donate a protion of thier troop treasury, but that's it as far as cash goes.

 

It's no problem for Boy or Girl Scouts in uniform or troop t-shirts to go organize the food pantry or clean toys or even do a door to door food drive. They are providing free labor and service to a worthy cause.

 

It is a problem when youth are wearing thier official uniforms asking for straight-up monetary donations from the public for either themselves or another group.

[desertrat77]

This discussion highlights the benefits and weaknesses of policy--specifically, the people who recommend it, draft it, publish it, read it, attempt to interpret it, and implement it. Not all policy is created equal. It takes discernment at all stages, which is a very rare quality. Otherwise, bad policy can hamstring an organization to the point of inertia.

 

Beavah's comments are 100 percent on target.

 

[boomerscout]

Without debating the rightness or wrongness of the troop's "traditions", could the lad in question not go to the PLC and ask for a variance? He could show them his school activities schedule -- thereby explaining why he could not make the window, but could offer to do some Saturday shifts or certain selected weeknights.

[RememberSchiff]

Bad scouting:

- Excluding scouts from troop activities because (pick any fixed black and white reason except safety, e.g. not doing THIS service project, not having 90% attendance, not attending a MANDATORY outing). My experience, this is an adult-rooted problem and those excluded quickly find the door marked "Exit".

 

- Rewarding scouts for just doing what we expect, living the Scout Oath and Law. We do good turns because it is right and scout.

 

Good scouting:

- Flexible, allow scouts to earn their way in a variety of ways. Can't do THE fundraiser, allow alternate possibilities. Scouting should teach scouts to balance their life and responsibilities not bully them into a scouting-only corner. We want scouts who are great sons and brothers, citizens, scholars, athletes, musicians, artists, workers, outdoorsmen,...

 

- Recognize scouts (Good Job!) who live the Scout Oath and Law in front of whole troop . I like this approach where the Marines landed at a troop meeting and thanked those particular scouts. Very cool.

http://www.usa-patriotism.com/articles/hp/marines_boyscouts01.htm Why not have the a Christmas party for whole troop and have Salvation Army or Marine drop in and recognize particular scouts?

 

Your SM gets a lump of coal this Christmas, a tradition for those who are bad.

 

My $0.02

[KC9DDI]

Hmmm... So I went back and re-read this thread, and what strikes me the most is the small amount of information we have on this situation. Based on what the OP posted, we know that 1) Scouts who participated in a certain service project are invited to a Christmas party, and 2) The troop committee provided the party's meeting space.

 

Unless I missed something, it would seem that we don't even know for sure if this is in fact a "troop" event (maybe it's the Salvation Army or a private individual offering to host the party, and the troop just offered a "donation" to cover the party space). We don't know whether the specifics on the party were advertised in advance.

 

Now, I understand that on this forum we very rarely get to hear both sides of the story -- but in this case, we're not even hearing very much about one side! It does sound like there's an axe being ground (grinded?), and that there's some background issues that are coloring noname's perspective on this issue. I certainly don't think the facts that have been presented justify condemning the troop or the SM.

 

That said, I guess I still don't see what the big deal is? You had to chose between school activities and Scouting activities in this case. You chose to do the school activities, and pass on the Scouting activities. A consequence of that decision was that you wouldn't be able to attend one particular party. Theoretically when making your decision, you should have taken that into account. So what's the problem? Part of making choices, making sacrifices, is that sometimes we have to deal with a negative consequence.

 

[noname]

Yes it was presented as ring or else.( I give evrytime I can to them) Yes the troop is paying for the party. Yes you are only getting 1 side of it(the right side!). In our house school comes 1st! Always has and always will. I've kept my mouth shut for now(to the troop anyway). Ya know there will be parents , leaders and committee folks there that did not do the community service as required. Is it fair they get to go and others are specificaly excluded?

[Eamonn]

I remember reading a book a couple of years back written by a parent who was also a journalist, if I remember correctly a sports journalist for the New York Times. His family lived in the area where Hilary Clinton was supposed to live in when she ran for office.

The book may or may not have been called Scouts Honor?

I'm sure that another Forum Member will remember it and correct me about the title.

The son of the writer joined a local Troop.

One of the Troops big fund raising events was a Christmas Tree Sale.

The father and son participated and worked their tails off selling trees even though they were Jewish.

Not sure what this has to do with anything? But this thread made me think of it.

Have to admit that I did know and was aware of the policy that made Boy Scouts supporting other charities a big no, no.

In some ways it makes sense.

In other ways it seems like a complete waste of ink.

I kinda see that it makes sense that if I thought I was donating to a cause and then found out that the cause I thought I'd donated too was passing my donation on to another cause, which maybe I didn't want to support, that I might be a little miffed.

If the truth be told when I stick a few dollars in the kettle, other than feeling that the poor soul ringing the bell might be cold? I couldn't care less who the heck is ringing the bell.

 

Yes I have as a unit leader invited Scouts to turn up and ring the bell.

As a rule it's cold in December and the kids are wearing jackets. I never asked them to wear their uniforms mainly because no one would see them anyway!

 

It's sometimes funny what people think.

In our area for a very long time it seemed that all the local packs just before Christmas sold stuff from Tom Wat. (Great little box full of over priced wrapping paper and junk.) Lots of people thought that Tom Wat was part of the BSA.

 

Have to admit that I'm not a great lover of any activity that excludes others. We don't just have COH for the Lads who are receiving stuff, we hold them for everyone.

Still I'm not sure if this party fight is one that I'd want to get involved in. In fact around the holidays the last thing I'd want is yet another something that I felt I had to attend! But I'm well known for being lazy.

Sure I can and do see that spending the few dollars out of Troop funds is a little out of line.

But I'm not sure I'd want to make a fuss.

I would like to think that rather than make a fuss I'd go along with "Peace on earth and goodwill to all men" Even the guys who might not be right and are in the wrong.

Ea.

[Twocubdad]

If I'm understanding the concensus of the group, I tend to agree.

 

If this is A reward for participating in the service project, I've got no problem.

 

If this is THE troop's annual Christmas party, excluding folks who can't participate in a particular project is pretty crummy. But if so, what to do? First, have your boy approach the PLC and make his case. And there's nothing wrong with you helping him prepare his pitch.

 

Secondly, I'd have a low-key chat with the Scoutmaster. He may not like the policy any more than you, but feels he needs to stand by the PLC's decision. I can easily see where a group of boys, trying to solve the problem of participation in an activity may come up with this solution. But as Scoutmaster/PLC Advisor, this would be an area in which I'd pipe-up and try to redirect the group. Boys this age have a hard time seeing the trees, much less the forest.

 

But if nothing changes, there is always next year. Coach you son that he need to get involved in the planning process. Perhaps next year he volunteers to lead the kettle drive or the holiday party so he has more input on who is included. And if next year he participates in the kettle drive, it will be a whole lot easier to make his point from the inside that as one of the guys who didn't participate and wants to get in.

[noname]

I wish "Peace on earth and goodwill towards all men" as well. For my own peace&goodwill I am resigning from the committee and withdrawing any and all support for the troop. The PLC & Troop Master now tell us that the party is open to all freinds, family and countrymen. Except for those that didn't do the service... Last straw for me. My wife is in tears and my son doesnt understand why he cant go but a stranger can... For some its not a big deal but Im a father 1st and Ive already addressed this with the Plc, committee and troop master. A open invitation to everyone else but us is what I got in return.

[Twocubdad]

That's a shame.