xmas party contigent on community service

[CCbytrickery]

They should have a smaller, separate "reward" party for those that "participated". Calling it a Christmas party is unfair to those who cannot fit into their time schedule or choose not to help that organization.

 

We (as a family) don't "do" the Salvation Army, because 3 years ago, Mr CC and I were both out of work, struggling to pay rent and electric and to keep food on the table--and we could not get any help from them for the kids at Christmas. We couldn't find help anywhere--everything was filled up by mid-October. Seems kind of petty, I know, but I was upset that an organization that is supposed to help everyone was picking and choosing who they would help, and the first "out" was your zip code--because we lived in a better part of town, we were automatically removed from the help list.

 

The company Mr CC was temping part-time for became our guardian angels that year, and I will be forever grateful to them.

 

We donate our toys/funds to the children's home our church helps or local children's hospital instead.

 

BTW, sometimes traditions need to be broken. I no longer cook on Christmas Day (other than some orange rolls from the blue tubes--I like that tradition). We order a ton of Chinese food on Christmas eve, and have leftovers (and cheese/crackers and veggie trays, plus cookies/pies/etc) on the 25th. I am no longer stuck in the kitchen while the family is playing with new toys/video games/etc in the living room.

 

(This message has been edited by CCbytrickery)

[Lisabob]

One thing about boy scouting - sometimes, things the boys decide to do, don't work out perfectly. Part of the learning curve is learning from those mistakes. That requires a very patient set of adults (and parents, especially).

 

So - since the SPL is apparently ok with this idea, I think there's a very limited role here for parents. Not to say that I agree at all with what you've described the troop as doing. But rather than YOU & your partner going full-bore here (or quitting), I'd say, have a quiet conversation with the Committee Chair about it (by quiet, I mean - really quiet - not a demand for change, but more a question/concern about whether the boys fully realize the implication of this policy), and then encourage your son to do what others have described here (tell his PL, go to the next PLC, talk to his SPL, bring it up at his next board of review, run for a position himself and advocate changing this policy). See where that takes him, and the troop, before you take more dramatic action.

 

All that said, if someone were to ask me, I'd tell them that I think it is a lousy idea to make a troop Christmas party off-limits to some members of the troop. Not exactly in keeping with what we think of as Christmas spirit there! And likely to make excluded people feel unwanted in their own community. Changing the name of that event would solve at least that one part of the problem.

[CalicoPenn]

Is this the only holiday party for the Troop? It sounds like it based on your first post - that the Committee has expended Troop funds (that have been raised by ALL the boys) for a party that only some people can go to. It sounds like some committee member some time in the past came up with the "brilliant" idea to force the lads to donate their time to a charity the committee member is/was hot for and the rest of the committee was too buffaloed to just say no and thus the event became ingrained in the culture of the Troop. There is only one way you're going to change this tradition - and that's to become the COR and dictate from on high that the Troop will no longer spend troop money on events that restrict any member of the Troop from participating, with the exception of high adventure trips that may require a Scout to be a certain age or rank. Unless you have a reasonable expectation that you can become COR, you are not going to change the culture of this unit.

 

The unit leaders (volunteers) may believe in their hearts that they are doing the right thing (or they may be just stuck in the "we've always done it this way" rut), but being exclusionary is usually never the right thing. That exclusionary policy has your partner ready to leave - that's what happens when there are exclusionary policies that don't have a strong reason behind it. The fact that you can point out that your son probably has more service hours than many of the lads that will be able to attend the party shows that this exclusionary policy is self-defeating. The fact that pointing that out to the SM and SPL didn't light up the light bulbs in their brains shows that the tradition is too ingrained in these folks for them to even consider that it may stink like a dead fish. How many other lads have walked away from this unit, and Scouting, without saying anything because of this tradition? We may never know, but it's likely that some have left along the way.

 

And don't believe for a second that the PLC will ever be able to change this either. As much as we harp on "boy-led" units, most units are an amalgamation of boy-led and adult-led units. It's more likely than not that when the PLC sits down to plan the year (if they do indeed do this), a portion of the calendar is already filled out and the bell ringing is on it, indelibly and never to be removed by vote of the PLC.

 

In Scouting, one of the things we develop is a sense of teamwork, that we're all part of a family. We don't do this by saying everyone is welcome, except for you because you didn't ring bells, and except for you because you didn't participate in the car wash. If this is the first "tradition" of the Troop you're stumbling on, what other "traditions" does this Troop have that stink like a dead fish? Sometimes, you need to go with the gut instincts - that first gut instinct to leave (and hopefully find a better unit) may be the one that's best to follow.

 

 

[Tampa Turtle]

What if a Troop spends money on, say buying tents for camp-outs. All boys "contributed" to the purchase but only those boys camping benefited. I guess the justification is that all boys had opportunity to go camping just like all boys had opportunity to ring bells. The problem with the schedule conflict argument is that it is unsolvable. There will always be choices and opportunities lost.

 

That said IMHO this is not the hill to die on for any party. I would not "exclude" a boy or on the other side complain too much.

[Beavah]

There is only one way you're going to change this tradition - and that's to become the COR and dictate from on high that the Troop will no longer spend troop money on events that restrict any member of the Troop from participating

 

Yah, and this would be an example of da sort of knee-jerk, tom-fool policy making that we all rightly criticize on a regular basis here. Yeh don't make policy to respond to events. All that gets yeh is a raft of unintended consequences because yeh didn't take the time to consider all of the possible other events.

 

It sounds like this is a Salvation Army chartered unit anyways, and quite possibly da sponsor is paying for the party. So that kind of scorched-earth foolishness wouldn't be possible anyways.

 

Personally, noname, my reaction as a parent is that yeh need to take a step back and "get a grip." It's a party. If you're goin' to get your shorts in a twist every time yeh feel someone didn't invite your son to a party you're goin' to have an awful high blood pressure by the time he's done with high school. It was a choice to meet academic commitments rather than serve with da troop, probably a good choice. Even good choices mean that yeh give up something... in fact that's what makes 'em good choices most of the time.

 

So congratulate your son on makin' a good choice and take the free time to go do somethin' fun and special as a family. If yeh are thoughtful and creative about it, yeh might just establish a family "tradition" that comes to mean a lot to your son and your spouse over time, and will be truly special.

 

Yeh might even consider goin' and doin' some genuine service together, without any hope of a reward. There are lots of folks like CCbytrickery's family out there in genuine need this year. Find 'em and throw them a party.

 

Beavah

 

[moosetracker]

I guess I come in the middle of both sides.. Is a Christmas party worth leaving a troop over, or becoming COR to be the controling force.. No.. It is not a hill to die on..

 

But while having incentives for scouts who do a service project with something within reason is fine. The troop Christmas party should by it's very nature of what it stands for, be welcoming to all members.. It should not be turned into the incentive for a service rendored, unless you stop calling it a Christmas party and call it what it is.. Does not matter if the troop spends money on it, or it is pot luck.. Any way you slice it up, it is Scrooge at his very best... "Bah Humbug"...

 

I am sure over time you will learn if this is a rule the boys made or some adult made.. If the boys made it, then as others have stated, let your son work the issue for the most part and it may take a few years until he is on the PLC to get anywhere.. If you find it is being pushed by the adults, then at that point in time, it wont hurt for you to help him with the issue.. Allow him to work the issue as the unit should be boy lead, but if the unit isn't, then adults may not have respect for boys with differing opinions, and it may need the backing of a parent or two standing behind him.

 

Are there any other Scouts being left out due to not being able to ring bells? Maybe the boys left out can get to and come up with something they would enjoy doing.. A movie, a christmas festival in the area, a christmas hayride..

 

The smaller the group the easier to find something that really excites them, The larger and you can throw your own party..

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

Well, we've avoided the elephant in the thread long enough.

 

By National BSA Policy - Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for their chartered organizations, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of moneyBoy/Cub Scouts and leaders should not identify themselves as (such)in The Salvation Armys Christmas bell-ringing program. This would be raising money for another organization. This comes from the back of the Unit Fund-Raising Application. Funny - it specifically mentions the bell ringing program. It also doesn't matter if they're in uniform or not. Units CAN NOT participate as a unit in this kind of fund-raising activity, even if the Salvation Army is their sponsor.

 

Now of course, if the lads and their parents want to do this on their own time, without identifying themselves as Scouts - that's all well and good. But as a unit activity, this is not allowed.

 

Given that, the arguments about whether it's fair to exclude people from the unit's x-mas party who don't take part in this unit's not allowed by policy service project really don't matter any more.

 

Since the unit can't, by policy, do this, then the unit shouldn't spend unit money on a party as a reward for a non-Scout activity.

 

If you decide to point out this restriction to the unit, and the unit is fully aware of the restriction and decided to ignore it anyway, I'd run as far away from this unit as possible - who knows what other policies they ignore on a regular basis.

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

Calico's perfect post not withstanding...

 

" this is not the hill to die on for any party "

 

Agreed, a party is not a hill to die on, but it goes deeper than that. It'sd about the people who put the hill there to start with;

 

This could have just as easily been "Troop Christmas Party" but obnly for those who sold over $1000.00 in camp cards.

 

Could be the "TROOP Christmas Party" but only if you were promoted a rank between October and November.

 

Could be the "TROOP Christmas" party, but only if you attend the same church as the SM or SPL.

 

Problem is, if the whole TROOP isn't automatically invited, then it's not a troop party. I can understand if you say you have to be active or still on the troop roster at council.

 

But what you have here in the OP is not a "TROOP" anything! It's a private, select persons party. And If I was a member of that units committe I'd see to it that the troop funds did not pay for it. If the select group wants to have that kind of party, let them pay for it themselves and it will not be an offical troop function or require troop dress.

 

Might as well call it a TROOP party , but only allow Life Scouts and above to attend.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Well, Calico post was enlightening for me.. I knew uniforms are not to be used for fundraising, even if it is a product we are selling, I knew for troop fund-raising you had to offer a product or service and not solicit or hold similar to gambeling.. But..

 

#1) Our troop always filled out the Unit fund-raising App. for troop fundraisers. Never thought about filling it out to with our CO's church bazar, as it wasn't our fundraiser.

#2) Did not know you could not do the Bell ringers or other "cheritable cause" solicitation while out of uniform.. I knew it had to be out of uniform, but thought you could do it.. I guess two reason; first, I have seen flyers similar to what SSScout put out before, were the SA is promoting BSA units doing this service (SSSCouts link is from scouting.org which should mean the flyer has BSA's stamp of approval); second, I was trying to think if any unit we were in solicited as a fundraiser in the past, at first I thought we did not, then I remembered early in cub scouts, Don't know if it was Council promoted, or Nationally promoted but definately not Pack promoted.. While putting out Scouting for food bags, cub had to personnally hand out the bag and then flash the UNICEF milk carton like piggy bank thingy.. So it was kindof manditorally pushed by our Council or National.. Anyone else remember this? It probably ended around 1998 or 1999 as I only think we did it two or three years.. Maybe this ended when this policy was changed?

 

Either way, as for the OP's Troop, it doesn't make me think any less of them, they have gone from having a tradition that is not well thought through as to how unfair it is.. To also being misinformed.. But the misinformation is understandable given National sending out mixed messages.. I am still not sure if the back of the fund-raising app is correct, or the Salvation Army app.. I now the Fund-raising app is more official then a flyer on the Scouting.org site that is put out by a non-BSA organization.. But I have always gone to Scouting.org and trusted that what they put out is in line with Nationals policy.. I think National has to sit down and figure out what there policy is and bring all their material in line with that.

 

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[shortridge]

The link that SSScout provided - the SA/BSA joint pamphlet - conspiciously does not list bell-ringing or kettle-staffing as one of its suggested service projects.

[noname]

As the orginal poster thanks and all of the replies are helpful. A former eagle scout just contacted me about his son joining our group. He is coming to the next meeting. I did not tell him that the xmas party was ..., could be intresting. We are a non-salvation army troop of less than 15.

[Beavah]

Units CAN NOT participate as a unit in this kind of fund-raising activity, even if the Salvation Army is their sponsor

 

Of course they can. Despite da BSA's occasional attempts to overreach, they really have no say in the private actions of individuals, groups, or sponsors. Their only legitimate interest is in da protection of the BSA trademarks. So while it is true that units should not publicly endorse or appear to endorse another agency as boy scouts, it would be completely incorrect to believe that meant that a sponsor couldn't use it's youth group for something, or that a unit couldn't decide to assist another NFP.

 

Practically speaking, we raise money for other organizations as Scouts all the time. We raised money and materials for Red Cross and other agencies when Katrina destroyed New Orleans. We raised funds and bought care packages for USO and our troops deployed overseas. Raising funds and materials is a vital part of community service and citizenship and is very much a part of our mission. We can and should do it all the time.

 

It's just nonsense to claim otherwise. Da interest of the BSA is solely in trademark protection. Steer clear of that, and yeh are just fine.

 

As this unit is.

 

Beavah

[Lisabob]

Beavah,

 

Some years back I was associated with a unit sponsored by the local Lions club. The club wanted the boys to fund raise for them outside the local grocery store. The first demand was that the boys do so in uniform (that got nixed immediately). The second was that the boys do so out of uniform, but still as a scout event.

 

I asked our council bigwigs about this. The unanimous answer at the time was "no," that CO's cannot require their scouting units to raise money from the community to benefit the CO. I suppose this is different than the CO stating "we are doing a fund raiser and would love it if you'd come help as individuals." But what our CO was doing, and what the CO here sounds like they're doing, is making the fundraiser a scout unit event. That was a no-go according to our council.

 

Rules and interpretations may vary elsewhere. I'm just saying what we got told here.

[Beavah]

To be clear, noname has said that da CO is not the Salvation Army. So this case is not a CO requirement, eh? Just a unit tryin' to do something nice for the community.

 

Various BSA officials will say all kinds of things. Even the darndest things sometimes . Mostly they're doin' their best, but they're human like everybody else.

 

B

[CalicoPenn]

Saying a policy isn't a policy doesn't make the policy go away, no matter how many times or how many ways you say it.

 

Let's be clear - the folks in the unit can decide that they will ring bells for the Salvation Army as individuals - there is nothing to prevent them from doing so (and in fact, I would applaud them for doing so - as individuals - what I would not do is then expend Troop funds to hold a party for these people that exclude folks that didn't ring bells - it isn't a Troop event). Indeed, there is nothing to prevent them from deciding as a group of individuals that they will do this. But - they can not do so as a Scouting Unit - that is BSA policy - spelled out pretty clearly on the Unit Fundraising Application - an application that specifically mentions Salvation Army Bell Ringing as a project that a Unit can not do. It can not be a Troop project. It doesn't matter if the Troop is just trying to do something nice for the community - they can not, as a BSA Troop, ring bells for the Salvation Army. They can ring bells as individuals who happen to be in a Troop - but that is not the same thing as doing it as a Troop project. That's the policy - like it or not. If you don't like the policy, then try to change it - don't try to obfuscate it by claiming that the BSA can't do anything about it. Of course the BSA can - the Dale decision has re-affirmed the right of the BSA to tell the sponsors and Troops what BSA units can and can't do.

 

Or is it alright to ignore policies you disagree with just because you disagree with them. The BSA say's a Troop must meet certain requirements to hold a sports shooting event - but hey, who cares what the BSA says, right? Just meet as a bunch of individuals and do what you want, right? 2-deep leadership on a campout? Ahh, who needs it - we'll just camp out as a group of individuals who happen to be in the same Troop - that way we can get around BSA policy.

 

So much for the Scout Law.

 

So hey, everyone, go ahead and do whatever you want from now on. Ignore BSA policies, rules and regulations - they're apparently nothing but pirate guidelines anyway.