Rethinking Ages in Scouting

[Eagle92]

'Fish

 

 

I would not make Webelos a 3 year program as I already have Webelos IIs who are bored and cannot wait to become Boy Scouts. They are chomping at the bit and are ready to go.

[Scoutfish]

Yeah, our boys are ready ( in their minds) to be boy scouts too. But the problem is there is too mucgh change happening at one time.

 

That's why I say you take the lowest part of Boy Scouts and make that the highest part of Webelos.

 

The problem is, we are basically saying this to them:

 

"You are gonna be big boys, you will have all sorts of responcibility and you will be all mature. So here's how we are gonna change you from parent dependant cubs to independant Boy Scouts:

 

Repeat after me....On my honor..."

 

So we tell them what to expect,and we have them understand the parts of the badge and recite a promise from memory.

 

So? I could recite an airline pilots creedo and identify the parts of a plane, but that does not make me a piloty.

 

Somewhere, there needs to be an actual physical learning/ training time.

Time for them to actually do what they are expected to do in Boy Scouts.

 

WEbelos III wouldn't be about another year of cub scouts, it would be about getting used to the dynamics of Boy scouts and how it works. THis is where you learn to get away from mom and dad wiping your nose and bringing a secret stash of PB&J sandwhiches.

 

Pretty much, by the time you do cross over to boy scouts, you are ready to earn your merit badges, earn your rank and be a boy scout without mom and ad in tow.

 

Basically, you have all your cub scouting behind you and done.

[Eagledad]

 

>>Somewhere, there needs to be an actual physical learning/ training time.

Time for them to actually do what they are expected to do in Boy Scouts.

[Beavah]

Yah, ScoutFish, I think I've been sayin' somthin' similar for decades.

 

Cubs/Beavers makes a great little-kids program for the 6-8 year olds / 1st-3rd graders.

 

At that point yeh need a real camping program for the 9-11 year olds / 4th-6th graders. Monthly front-country camping during good weather months for da area. Cabin/shipboard adventure/day trip events for da bad weather months. We'd have to beat back da G2SS bit which tends to lump all of the current "cubs" together in its prohibitions, but I reckon da Health and Safety folks would be happy to have a whole new section to work on and justify their jobs.

 

To my mind, the natural maturity point for boys on average is toward spring of 6th grade, not spring of 5th grade. For girls it's earlier, but not for boys. Just reflect on how many cases of homesickness we get with da 5th grade crowd and such; how much effort TG's or PLs have to put in dealin' just with "lack of focus" from bein' little kids. Those are the "ankle biters" the older boys don't want to "baby sit". Yah, a few boys mature earlier, but they'd be the natural leaders in the 6th grade webelos teams. Da program age transition should go where the average is.

 

Then Scouts really begins with da age 12/7th grade boys. I think that works fine as a grade 6-12 program, with leaders/venturers being age 15-18, grade 10-12. Those leaders/venturers also have some additional high adventure opportunities where they build their social connections and skills.

 

So that's

 

Cubs Grade 1-3 (transition in late spring for us Northerners, a bit earlier for da south).

Teams Grade 4-6 (same transition).

Scouts Grade 7-12 (same transition).

Ventures/Scout Leadership Grade 10-12 (transition more by maturity and ability than grade level).

Rovers/Venture Leadership Grade 13-15

Rovers/Adult Leadership to age 27/marriage/first kid.

Administrative Support Only - Age 27 up.

 

If/when we eventually go coed, I think yeh run a parallel girls program until Ventures. At least, I think there's some real merit to being separate durin' early adolescence, when each group really needs some same-sex mentoring from older peers.

 

Beavah

 

[Moggie]

To quote Moosetraker

"is to get something like UK where the older boys from the other programs are coming back to the younger units to be Leaders"

 

This would be the Young Leader (YL) scheme (we're co-ed; so its young people to us rather than boys), it is an element that explorer scouts can choose to do as part of their development, from the TSA website:

"The Young Leaders' Scheme helps Explorer Scouts to develop and grow as individuals. It allows them to make a valuable contribution to their community and give service to others. The scheme also helps them fulfil the service elements of their awards."

 

Young leaders are first and foremost explorer scouts, in my group we have an attached explorer unit of which two have chosen to be young leaders and help with the younger sections (one with Beavers, the other cubs). Young leaders can help with their old troop but for this to work there needs to a time gap so that scouts see them as leaders rather than just bigger scouts.

As a scouter I like the way beavers and cubs are able to look up and relate to YLs in a way that they don't with adults.

 

Cheers

Moggie

 

 

[John-in-KC]

What Beavah basically did was validate the UK Model.

 

I like his plan.

 

Too bad the folks in Irving won't buy it...

[moosetracker]

Moggie - I guess I was lead to believe something different, don't remember the thread or who said it, but someone from the UK, gave me the impression that the majority of all units was in the leadership of young adult. You were looked at as kindof strange if you were an still trying to be an adult leader and were older the 25 or 30 (or somewhere around there)..

 

Your versions makes me think that the young adults help with the units at about the same percentage as we can get den chiefs, and the units are still largely run by parents or older adults..

[Stosh]

I would like to see a different focus on BSA with the different aged boys.

 

Starting with Webelos, 2 years of T2FC training so that when the come into Boy Scouts they can actually camp. Sure they do the Cubby things at the same time but also take on the Boy Scout things for real. They wear the tan shirt, many of the pins are parallel to T2FC requirements watered down a bit, and by the time they finish Webelos they are ready for Boy Scouts. Webelos denners are the training ground for PL/APL's. This way they are spending time getting ready for the next level instead of viewing the end of Cubs as a graduation and ending of something.

 

3-4 years of Boy Scouts focused on taking the outdoor skills to the next level. Getting good at fire, not just playing with it. Cooking well at outings, building things and having fun learning new things with a strong emphasis on leadership/team building skills. Really having the chance to take on canoeing on short weekend trips, doing rock climbing on walls or short cliffs, learning the basics. Doing biking and hiking incorporated with camping. Take on first aid training so that it can be done for real in the field.

 

The 14-18 year old scouts are then the high adventure/Venturing/Venture patrol boys. They have the outdoor skills, the leadership, and now the opportunity to put it to the real test.

 

The ages are rather arbitrary, but the development sequence needs to be built in to show that the boy who starts his Eagle Project has the skills to actually do it right. This is the age where everything they have done up to this point is going to be put to the real test. This is not the years where the boys go to summer camp for the umpteenth time, but instead are looking at BWCA, Jamborees, Sea Base and Philmont!

 

I for one would have a difficult time quiting, just when I have reached a certain level and have a whole new world of opportunity going to be missed if I quit. But what happens if I get to a certain level and the only thing on the horizon is the same-old, same-old.

 

Just a thought....

 

Stosh

[Eagle92]

Moose,

 

I believe Beavah mentioned some of the European countries are like that, I believe Belgium is one of them, but the Brits are not like that.

[qwazse]

jb,

 

Your model really resonates with me because that's about where I saw my kids want to interact with their world.

 

Thanks to college and military hauling away most of my 18+ y.o.s (and one 17 y.o. who got early admission) that's about all I have to work with.

 

I wish the T2FC were accessible to Jr. High Girls. It would make the venturing program so much easier.

[Beavah]

I wish the T2FC were accessible to Jr. High Girls. It would make the venturing program so much easier.

 

Yah, just buy 'em a book and start a club, eh? Make up your own uniform and patches and give it a go.

 

B

 

[Cambridgeskip]

but someone from the UK, gave me the impression that the majority of all units was in the leadership of young adult. You were looked at as kindof strange if you were an still trying to be an adult leader and were older the 25 or 30 (or somewhere around there)..

 

Moosetracker - possibly it was something I said. In another thread I referred to some other European countries where you had to retire from being a leader at around 30 and could only be a commissioner of some sort above that age. In the Uk we have quite a spectrum of ages. Currently we have 8 adult leaders with my troop (a lot! but they can't be there every week, we had 4 last night) aged 20, 21, 23, 28, 32, 33, 45 and 68 (and he's still going strong!) and that spread is probably a younger average age than most.

 

I would echo would echo what Moggie said in that the YL scheme can be excellent both for groups and the YLs. Get good YLs and they are a massive asset and have a very different relationship with the scouts/cubs/beavers. they tend to work best as a pair from my experience.

[Stosh]

Beavah might be on the right track. Who says that the youth one organizes has to be a registered scout in order to have fun. Why not start out the kids using BSA materials, organize a group, follow YPT, etc. and get the gals going. Then when they are old enough, register them and just keep on going. I don't think there is anything wrong or sacrilegious that says gals can't be doing guy stuff. Heck, the feminists are always hounding the guys to do gal stuff. I'm sure there are going to be some restrictions, but with parental permission and involvement, it could be something quite beneficial to the gals.

 

Stosh

[Pint]

As far as camping and residentail trips go in the UK Cubs ( age 8-10 ) often camp out in tents, and some of the restrictions on Beaver Scouts have recently been lifted, which means its easier to take Beaver Scouts out camping ( although as im not a Beaver Scout leader im not too sure on the exact ins and outs of that)

 

although there is a huge difference between how you would run a cub camp, and how you would run/supervise a Scout Camp

 

As for the Age ranges, a 13 or evena 12 year old patrol leader is goign to need a lot more help, and guidance than a 15 year old, and things dont run quite like they used to, apparently, although ive not got a huge amount of expeirience as a leader under the old age ranges.

 

Scouts in the Uk is now 10 1/2 ( or 10) up to 14 ( or 14 1/2 ) from there its Explorer Scouts up to 18.

previously we had Scouts up to 16 and Venture Scouts up to 21.

The Venture scout section used to cross the 18 age gap, now all over 18s have to be CRB checked ( detailed background checks) plus there was the issue of alcohol.

As a Venture scout it was common to swap Over 18 and under 18 passes in order to get served at the bar on many events and camps, plus there was the stuff that was bought to camp as well ( beer vodka/whiskey/ and so on )

some Venture Scout groups had a sensible atitude to this, get drunk cause a nuisance once, do it again and your not coming on any other event until you can gaurentee you will behave, if it happens again then thats that. where as some other groups werent quite as sensible.

 

So with Explorer Scouts stopping at 18 quite a few problems have been solved.

[Beavah]

All this can be accommodated in the existing programs as they are, if leaders are willing to follow it.

 

Yah, to some extent yes, to some extent no. Savvy locals can always buck da system a bit, and a big CO like LDS can opt to essentially make the 6th graders/11 year old program a separate and independent thing.

 

But structure matters, eh? So long as Webelos is part of Cub Scouts, it gets run like cub scouting by most units. Da same leaders offering a mommy-ified program, and those same leaders gettin' 5 years to burn out. I think that's why we see an awful lot of membership loss during the webelos years. If we made da national program expectation that cubs finished in 3rd grade, and webelos was separate, with new rules and expectations, it would help.

 

That would also line up with SeattlePioneer's view of when resident camping should kick in. Day camp is for cub scouts, resident camping is for Webelos.

 

Beavah