Service Hours... double dipping ok?

[qwazse]

BP - awesome works mentality there! Don't ever dispense 3 hours of grace for one hour of penance!

 

I believe in overlapping service requirements as much as the letter allows. Our kids do great things, we need to recognize them for it.

 

If we spare them the misery of finding time to fulfill non-overlapping service hours, we FREE them to serve according to their gifts. And they do! So, LET THEM.

 

Within scouting if an MB requirement states that the project cannot be counted for other service hours, then it is non-overlapping. If it doesn't state otherwise then it is overlapping.

 

I agree that a scout should plan ahead and get approval rather than make things add up after the fact. But, invariably, we find a kid who's coming up short on paper has been working as hard as the next guy. He simply never thought to log those hours (lousy bureaucrat, great servant).(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[Engineer61]

"If volunteer hours are required, are they then volunteer hours? "

 

No. They may be "Community Service" hours, as required by many offenders in our justice system, but they are not volunteer hours.

 

In my state, in order to pass a State required course to graduate from High School, you must perform Community Service hours...a complete pain in the backside to deal with.

 

By doing so, the State siphons off about 9000 hours of Community Service from my school per school year. Multiply that by all the schools in the state...big number.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)

[Beavah]

By doing so, the State siphons off about 9000 hours of Community Service from my school per school year.

 

And in return da parents get free day care for 12 years allowing 'em to work during the day and the kids get a free education. Alternately, instead of payin' $1.5K per year in property taxes yeh can fork up $15K (or whatever private school tuition is these days) and give da rest of us our money back.

 

Seems like givin' a few hours back to da community that contributed to give 'em 13 years of education isn't too much to ask. Of course, an honorable and civic-minded family would already be doin' lots more than the minimums, just like any good scout, so da requirement would hardly be a nuisance at all.

 

Beavah

[Scoutfish]

"And in return da parents get free day care for 12 years allowing 'em to work during the day and the kids get a free education"

 

What state do you live in Beavah? I might move there because in NC, there isn't any free education. I pay my share by way of taxes, schol bonds( different taxes) school fees and supply fees - then have to go out and still buy a long list of supplies as required by each teacher, and then more required by the school( so why am I paying a supply fee?) .

 

Then I pay more taxes to fund those who do not pay anything, as well as fund lunches for those who cannot pay( I am okay with this one - I do not want any kid to go hungry at all).

 

I also patronize 3 different event/festivals that directly contribute to the 3 loocal schools.

 

I wish it was free childcare and I wish that education was free too, but that is not even slightly truye.

 

Teachers are getting paycuts and getting laid off while superintendants are getting 4,5 and sometimes 6 figure raises and bonuses, before they do something to get themselves fired and then recieve a plush severance package regardless of why they quit or were fired. I am talking about $400,000.00 severance packages.

 

Where do you suppose that comes from?

 

Definantly not free by any means!

 

[Beavah]

Yah, Scoutfish, whatever. Any way yeh cut it, you as a parent are paying only a fraction of da real cost to educate your kid for 13 years (and longer). The rest of us taxpayers who don't have kids in da system are subsidizing 80% of it or more. Yah, I agree with yeh, in some parts of da country education is valued less and therefore not supported, but that's reflected more in quality than quantity.

 

Beavah

[JMHawkins]

Da moment a lad thinks about double-countin', we've failed in our mission, eh? Because then he's focused on what he can get, not on what he can give.

 

I got the impression it's more the adults getting worked up over the accounting than the Scout. I assumed it was the Scout looking at "6 hours of service projects" for his rank requirement and saying "well, I'm doing 12 hours over the next month at the food bank with my school, does that count?" and then some adults worrying he was getting too much credit for his "volunteering." Maybe it was the other way around, but I can probably be excused for assuming it's the adults mucking it up, eh?

 

But that's not what we're talkin' about here. Whether it's for rank or NHS or confirmation class or what have yeh, there is an expectation of a "cookie" on da boy's part. In fact, there's a prior agreement on da expectations for the cookie.

 

Of course most of this gets back to our goals, eh? What do we all want da boys to learn? This is where I really think that anybody who is spendin' their time tallying up hours and fractions of hours and portions of requirements in some computer program is doin' Advancement all wrong. Advancement should be like a suntan, eh? It's somethin' yeh just get naturally from being outdoors and workin' hard.

 

In my very first comment on this thread, I said I was uncomfortable with putting an hour requirement on service. I'd be happier if it was worded more like the Scout Spirit requirement - demonstrate a commitment to service while doing all the other things you do to earn a rank. I think the number contributes to the green-eyeshade behavior and increases the chances of sending the wrong message. And while I know Scout Spirit gets a lot of uneven attention in advancement, I think we mostly manage to fit it into the "suntan" approach. I certainly don't hear loud calls to quantify Scout Spirit ("demonstrate at least 5 instances of trustworthy behavior, 3 instances of loyal behavior, 8 of helpful...").

 

I'm also uncomfortable with things like the class Scoutfish mentions. I think forced volunteerism is a really dangerous idea to fool around with. I understand John-in-KC's point about kids needing some - shall we say encouragement - to do the right thing while they're still maturing. But tying "required volunteer" hours to important rewards or objectives (cookies) for the kids risks teaching them not about service, but a somewhat skewed work ethic instead. Teaching kids the importance of service to their community is good. Teaching them that the way to get something you want from Person A is by doing something for free for Person B is really bad. All sorts of social, cultural and economic problems will stem from that appraoch. It's not an easy line to walk, and I think asking kids to punch a clock on their service hours makes it even harder. Better to simply stress that service is important the same way that Thrify, Brave, Cleean and Reverent are imporant.

 

In the meantime, we do have to quantify service hours because that's what the book says, but that doesn't mean we have to emphasize the quanity.

 

 

 

 

[Gunny2862]

Best comment in thread! - JMHawkins

 

"Lets look at a hypothetical, using 5Years son. Lets say 5Year Jr. and his Patrol mate Zeke both make First Class at the same time. Zeke goes to a different school that doesnt require service projects, and isnt in FFA or NHS. A year later, Zeke has checked off all of his Star requirements, including doing a 6 hour service project with the Scout Troop. 5Year Jr. has done everything except the service project. Over the year, he has done 12 * 21 = 252 hours of service work, but it was for other things and he cant count it because that would be double-dipping. So, as the SM, youre going to say with a straight face that Zeke, with his 6 hour service project, has demonstrated the spirit of selfless giving and service to others, but 5Year Jr. with his 252 hours still hasnt quite got it?"

 

Now to turn that slightly on it's side, IF a Scout were to have involved himself with the authorities and were doing Community Service hours as part of some retributive or restorative effort a s a result of his legal issues, ain't no way I'm double counting those hours.

 

But I think the major point that has been skipped over by almost everyone is the idea that another part of being a Scoutmaster isn't just ensuring the rules are followed - It's also dealing with each individual Scout to assist with the development of their character. These are people, not computers; we grow them, not program them.

 

And on that note what's with the incivility in the program threads, thought that was for the political area?

[Scoutfish]

Yeah Beavah,

 

But if you figure I have been paying wage taxes since I was 14 years old, not to mention any other tax through work, consumption, property bought, services, etc..

Since I have been payinmg county, state and federal taxes of real property as well as house, vehicles, boats, since I was 18 and that my son wasn't born until I was 30. And after he turns 18 he will be slf supporting ( I hope) - but I will continue to pay taxes until I die, and then some for dieing..then......

 

NO!!!! I am not paying a fraction, I am paying just as much as you or anybody else.

 

And the two of us are both paying a ton for those who do not pay anything towards their share due to their "Undocumented " status.

[Beavah]

So, as the SM, youre going to say with a straight face that Zeke, with his 6 hour service project, has demonstrated the spirit of selfless giving and service to others, but 5Year Jr. with his 252 hours still hasnt quite got it

 

Depends what the "it" is, eh?

 

I reckon a SM might well sit down with 5yearJr. and talk about no matter how many hours yeh put in in service durin' the week, an honorable fellow still does his duty to God and puts in his hour in church on Sunday. No matter how much work he did for client X, an honorable fellow wouldn't charge that to client Y.

 

The double-dipping lesson isn't about service. Heck, da BSA service requirement is too paltry to be about service. It's about personal honor and integrity.

 

But maybe this just shows how far astray advancement method has gone, eh? I'm not convinced that the lads should ever be taught to expect an award for service. Let alone two for the same service.

 

Beavah

[fred8033]

"I reckon a SM might well sit down with 5yearJr. and talk about no matter how many hours yeh put in in service durin' the week, an honorable fellow still does his duty to God and puts in his hour in church on Sunday. No matter how much work he did for client X, an honorable fellow wouldn't charge that to client Y. "

 

"The double-dipping lesson isn't about service. ... It's about personal honor and integrity."

 

 

Ya know, that's just plain old wrong. I'd use other words, but it would not be polite. The last thing I'd do is lay a guilt trip on a scout about being less than honorable after he's done something nice for someone else. I expect all leaders in my troop to respond with nothing less than "wow, that's great" when a scout starts talking about service he did for others.

 

It's not our issue whether a school, NHS or church cares about double dipping. That's their issue, not ours.

 

You might be disappointed that BSA does not expect more, but that's not the requirement and it's not our place to look for ways to make the program more difficult. That's just mean.

 

[qwazse]

An SM might ... talk about an honorable fellow still does his duty to God and puts in his hour in church on Sunday. No matter how much work he did for client X, an honorable fellow wouldn't charge that to client Y.

 

And if the kid says to SM Beav, "Well sir, I heard on Sunday that God reaps where he does not sow and expects me to do the same with my talents!"

 

Anybody know if there's a medal for that!

 

Seriously, for our school's National Honor Society, the point of the juniors reporting their service hours is so that the seniors can write up an introduction that recognizes the candidate's well rounded nature. I think the school graduation requirement is similar. They want the kids to have *something* that recognizes their initiative outside the classroom. They do not want it to be exclusively for fulfilling school requirements.

 

No, it doesn't get back the value 'Fish's hard earned tax $$'s, but that's a different topic.

 

[Basementdweller]

Gotta chuckle here......6th grade scout son has 134 hours since joining scouting 18 months ago.

 

 

[5yearscouter]

Basement says

"Gotta chuckle here......6th grade scout son has 134 hours since joining scouting 18 months ago."

 

Sounds like bragging,

except

that's only an average of 7.4 hours a month, and hours over the summertime don't count for school credit.

 

I also have a 6th grader, him getting hours is cake compared to the honors student high schooler with a lot of things going on. 6th graders don't have OA, PLC, college classes, girlfriends, work for pay, multiple clubs and such to balance against scouting activities.

[Beavah]

6th graders don't have OA, PLC, college classes, girlfriends, work for pay, multiple clubs and such to balance against scouting activities

 

Yah, but those are all choices, eh? Choices are part of life. Yeh can't have everything. Choose family first, it might mean gettin' less from a career. Spend lots of time with girlfriends, have less time to study. Those are da sorts of choices kids need to make as high schoolers, where it's still pretty safe to fail. And how to negotiate competin' demands for themselves.

 

Doesn't do a lick of good to let 'em by with less by double-counting. It's da wrong lesson.

 

IMNSHO, anyways . People vary, programs vary, goals vary, mileage varies.

 

Beavah

[fred8033]

"Choices are part of life. ... Doesn't do a lick of good to let 'em by with less by double-counting. It's da wrong lesson. "

 

Huh. You made a choice to be a registered leader in the BSA. As such, you made a choice to support BSA advancement. What your promoting is not the BSA program.