Service Hours... double dipping ok?

[5yearscouter]

sure 6 hours for rank isn't that much Beavah,

 

but if you look at my son's list

it's 6 hours a month for school(30 hours a semester)

5 hours for ffa

and 10 hours for nhs

so each month they expect about 21 hours of service if you don't allow double dipping.

 

I give my hour a week to scouting

and along the way work way more than that for other community groups, but some months come in higher than others.

 

Making a habit of giving to the community is important to me,

but the quantity of required volunteerism is counted more than the quality. sometimes I think an hour of reading to the elderly who cannot see is more important than 3 hours of cleaning up trash in a neighborhood park that is already pretty clean. eh?

 

I think it's a bit much sometimes to expect almost a day of service(21 /24 hours)by our teenagers each month. 21 hours this month, or do you need 27 this month because you can't count the NHS and FFA and school hours for scouts so you need to add in 6 more hours this month?

 

if we were talking "just" 6 hours a month, well even that with school, sports, scouts, band, and college classes and SAT prep and such is sometimes a bit too much....(This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

[Buffalo Skipper]

So let me understand this. If a scout is doing selfless service for scouts it counts. But if he gains any other benefit from the time, he can no longer count it for scouts? So if he is doing a service for his church, like say being an usher, it may count for scouts. But not if he is credited these hours and recognized by his youth group, it somehow becomes something else and doesn't count?

 

None of our schools give a flying hoot what other motives a student may have for doing service. This whole "anti-double dipping" perspective seems to me to be a uniquely scout-only attitude, and rather un-scout like, as I see it.

[BadenP]

You know all these service hour problems are directly related to the BSA pushing ranks way too fast T-1st in a year then S-L-E in another year or two and the scout leaders that allow this double dipping just prove to the boys they don't have to make any extra effort to advance. The ranks have virtually no real meaning to the boys because they have been pushed through scouts using the fast food approach. Double dipping is permitted only by lazy scoutmasters who don't seem to understand their responsibilities to the youth.

 

BD- with all due respect there is no 12 yo scout who is ready for Eagle. With all my years as an ASM and SM the boys getting Eagle at that young of an age is a complete mockery of the true scout program, especially when he is allowed to fudge on most to all of his requirements. When I talk to the SM's at RT les than half are even qualified to be a real scoutmaster. That is why todays scouting is little more than a program for Cup Cake Scouts.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[John-in-KC]

My two cents, based on my son's 8th grade confirmation year:

 

- June, 2003: Cub Scout District Day Camp. He gave 40 hours to the camp as J-Staff for a T-shirt. He asked his Pastor and Scoutmaster to use 30 hours of that time for confirmation service hours (granted) and the remaining 10 hours for Star--->Life service time (granted).

 

- December, 2003: Our Troop participated in an area charitable project called "Bikes N Trikes for Tykes." (renovate used bicycles and tricycles for underprivileged kids). He did 2 service evenings with that, because it was fun and good to do. The time didn't count for any rank whatsoever. It was service the community needed.

 

Key point: Teach them to serve, teach them that community service is fun.

[Frank17]

AS SM for out Troop, I see double dipping requests all the time. And there are several ways we allow / disallow them, depending on the request:

1. If the scout requests service hour credit for 2 MBs using the same hours ....NO

2. If the scout requests service hour credit for a MB and a rank using the same hours ...NO, unless there are excess hours to cover both

3. If the scout requests credit for non-Troop service hours IN ADVANCE of the service ...YES

 

We generally allow service to be double counted (for school credit & scout credit) as we feel the scout should get credit for all their helpful deeds, not just ones done by the Troop. However, we generally do not give credit for regular (non-troop) service a scout gives to others after the fact, when they are normally volunteering, without advance credit. Example: Scout has provided service to their church for the past 5 years, for which scout seeks credit after the fact. We approve credit for future service to be counted towards a MB, but not all the past hours. (A minor point but important as many ranks / MBs require spre-approval or ervice hours to be earned after the rank / MB is started.)

 

We have never had a problem staffing service projects. We do have a problem finding enough parents to organize / supervise projects enough to satisfy the scouts.

[SMT224]

I appreciate all the participation in this discussion. It's been a good log on the fire. Thanks!!

[JMHawkins]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the time requirement for service as a rank issue. Like the comments about "is it really volunteering if it's required?" point out, it's a bit of a line to walk. I'd prefer focusing on service as something the Scouts do to strengthen their community rather than something they do to earn a reward (rank, graduation, extra credit, etc). Maybe a way to clarify my unease would be to ask if we'd like to replace the Scout Spirit requirement with one that said "Behave in a Trustworthy manner at least twice since joining your Troop" or "Spend a minimum of 1 hour being Kind while a Star Scout..." Seems to cheapen it by quantifying the requirement.

 

I think I'd be more comfortable with a service requirement that said "demonstrate Scout Spirit by contributing to one or more Service Projects appropriate for your rank that are approved by your Scoutmaster." Then we're tying the notion or recognition to the quality of the act rather than the quantity. The Advancement handbook or the Scoutmaster handbook could give guidance on how to judge appropriate projects, including perhaps time commitments where reasonable, but overall stressing the goals of improving the community and spreading goodwill in some way. Also, that would pretty much eliminate concerns about "double-dipping" since the Scout is engaging in service projects and learning about giving selflessly to the community, which really ought to be the lesson.

 

Plus that also helps avoid accidentally teaching the wrong lesson - namely that it's okay for people in charge to conscript slave labor when they can get away with it.

[Basementdweller]

So 5 year.........I gotta ask

 

 

Has your scout been triple or quadruple dipping?????

 

I could see a young man and lazy parent counting 1 hour of service for 4 different things in your example. Is it right, wrong and in the scouting spirit?????

 

So the reality of 5 years example is his scout could complete 6 hours of service and receive 24 hours of credit in 4 different activities. Is that proper?????

 

 

In my opinion no. If your double dipping than what is the difference to triple or quadruple dipping????????

 

Not hating, Not judging just asking the question. It just seems fishy to me.

 

In our troop service hours are a non issue. we have plenty of projects and everyone seems to participate in them. Second Class scout son has nearly 100 in 18 months of boy scouting. none of it counts for anything else other than scouting(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[5yearscouter]

Basement,

how exactly do you profess a high schooler fits into his schedule 21+ hours of service every month?

 

that's almost 3 full time days of service per month.

 

Are you going to give up 3 saturdays a month to volunteer, since most orgs around here(like food bank) won't accept anyone under the age 18 without a parent present--and have them all be different sorts of places/activities to fullfill the requirements of 4 different clubs?

 

Last December = 8 hours building bikes for the needy at christmas one saturday before christmas -doesn't cut it. 4 hours moving boxes of toys for toys for tots and sorting them with OA. nope, that's not enough hours. going door to door collecting blankets, socks, etc for the homeless shelter, 6 hours, nope, still not enough. serving soup at a soup kitchen with parent along for 2 hours on a friday night, wrapping presents for elder folks home for a couple hours. sure we were able to fit that in cause he had finals the 2nd week of december and was able to spend more time doing for the sake of doing on his time off, and get all 21 hours in for one month.

 

But doing that every month? nope, sorry, ain't gonna work. well unless he doesn't go on any troop campouts, or weekend events, stops taking college classes 4 nights a week, and skips some homework. where else is he supposed to find the time for such hours? can't count the time to work on his eagle project, shouldn't count it for anything except scouting, cause that would be double dipping, wouldn't it? and good thing he doesn't have a girlfriend that wants to go out on dates or anything, and no job but selling popcorn to help pay for his scouting expenses.

 

there just isn't enough time in the month.(This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

[Basementdweller]

I was just asking if you were triple or quad dipping??? I am guessing the triple dip

 

 

Just another over scheduled youth..........A shame he is missing his teenage years.....I enjoyed mine as will my son.

[John-in-KC]

JM,

 

Please tell me another way to inculcate the ethic of service to others in a young person.

 

Altruism is not a natural behavior of mankind. It must be learned.

[BadenP]

5 year

 

You seem to miss the point being in scouting , just like school or sports, requires making a true committment. Scouting ranks are EARNED not given away because he is a nice kid. You as his SM must help him learn how to balance his schedule, if he is too overloaded he is going to have to give something up instead of burning the candle at both ends. Allowing him to triple dip his service hours sends the wrong message that it is okay to do a substandard job with a task and to fudge requirements just to get him through. That kind of SM leadership is what is undermining the boy scout program today. and if you really believed in the Scout Oath and Law you would not allow these kind of practices to exsist in your troop, however since you seem to think it is okay to fudge requirements I really have to question your credibility as a SM.

[JMHawkins]

Please tell me another way to inculcate the ethic of service to others in a young person.

 

Altruism is not a natural behavior of mankind. It must be learned.

 

No other way needed KC. I didn't suggest we do away with service projects, I suggested we not put on green eye shades and tally up the hours like some wretch from a Dickens play. "Five minutes short, Cratchet! No Star rank for you this month! What do you think this is, some go-and-have-fun-with-your-friends club?"

 

I think service projects are important, but they're not important because x hours of work got done. They're important because the Scout learned about caring for his community and the people around him. I have a hard time understanding why "double-dipping" for volunteer work is even a problem - unless the goal isn't to teach an ethic of service but instead to wring free labor out of kids in exchange for our approval. "Sorry kid, I'd like to congratulate you for clearing the brambles from the old pioneer cemetary and reminding the community to respect our departed forefathers, but your teacher already patted you on the back for that. You'll have to do something else if you want me to like you too."

 

I know, I know, probably too harsh and I partially apologize if anyone dislikes that remark. I know getting free labor is the last thing any of us - or National - is trying to do. Honestly, it would be cheaper to hire Union-waged contractors most of the time, when you factor in all the support we adults have to give for the "free" service. But I still get the nagging feeling we're on the wrong track with the whole hours and double-dipping debate.

 

Service isn't about the time spent, it's about the ethics learned. Right?

[John-in-KC]

At this level, learning the ethic is Quadrant 1 of the leadership model: High Directive, Low support. As our kids mature through their teens, they will move into Quadrants 2 and 3, and with adulthood, Lord willing they get to quadrant 4.

 

That's how I see it, so I'm OK with mandatory service.

[JMHawkins]

I guess Im still bothered by this. Sorry for ranting on about it, but it got under my skin for some reason.

 

Lets look at a hypothetical, using 5Years son. Lets say 5Year Jr. and his Patrol mate Zeke both make First Class at the same time. Zeke goes to a different school that doesnt require service projects, and isnt in FFA or NHS. A year later, Zeke has checked off all of his Star requirements, including doing a 6 hour service project with the Scout Troop. 5Year Jr. has done everything except the service project. Over the year, he has done 12 * 21 = 252 hours of service work, but it was for other things and he cant count it because that would be double-dipping. So, as the SM, youre going to say with a straight face that Zeke, with his 6 hour service project, has demonstrated the spirit of selfless giving and service to others, but 5Year Jr. with his 252 hours still hasnt quite got it?

 

Now, obviously thats ridiculous. Nobody is fudging requirements he participated in 6 hours of service projects, met the requirement. Clearly his SM needs to have approved them before-hand as the requirements say, but theres nothing wrong with fulfilling obligations to multiple organizations with the same service work. It would be wrong to be *paid* by multiple organizations for the same work oh yes. But were not talking about paid work here, are we? Our goal (at least as far as the service requirements go) is to instill a respect for, and a habit of, service to others, to his community. Theres no need for the service to be exclusive to Scouting. If his service was also recognized by some other organization, fine, great, not a problem! Maybe helps drive home the point that its a good thing to do. In fact, refusing to recognize the service he did seems to miss the spirit of the whole thing far more than any double-dipping could. Saying that he has to earn his rank by doing a new service project makes the service work not quite selfless service, eh? Rather more mercenary in tone. Service is something you do without expectation of a reward. You dont earn anything but respect and goodwill from it. If you have to do another 6 hours to earn your Scouting rank because your previous work was already counted for something else you also earned (a grade, a ribbon, whatever), then its not service to others. Its a job.