scout with broken leg/ankle needs 5 mile hike

[Venividi]

Was thinking about this while out for my evening run - about the widely divergent answers offered here: Do X because of abc; Do Y because of def; do Z because (thats the rule / it's not prohibited by the rules) [take your choice].

 

Everyone jumped in with answers, when it might have been better to ask questions first to explore what you want the scouts to get out of scouting. Because the appropriate answers always come easier when there is a clear understanding of what is important to the decision maker.

 

So some questions:

Will the scout quit scouting if rank advancement is delayed a couple of months due to broken ankles?

Will the scout be dissappointed if he is delayed in advancement?

If so, is the goal to prevent dissappointment? If so, why?

Or is there an opportunity for a character lesson in learning how to deal with dissappointment?

 

Which answer is most consistent with the mission and aims of scouting?

 

Would the answer be different if the delay was 2 years rather than two months?

 

Are 5 mile hikes scheduled because they are needed for scouts to meet an advancement requirement? Or are they scheduled on a regular basis (once a month?) because they are fun and give the scouts another chance to explore different trails and woods with their fellow patrol members? If so, then the scout is able to go on the next regular hike after the doctor gives the OK.

 

Is there an opportunity here for some coaching of the patrol leader with a "Would you be interested in taking your patrol on a hike in November because "John" wants to go on one, and will be recovered by then?" - Thats when you will see if the patrol has really bonded and find a way to come out and support their buddy, or if they see no reason to go because they have that requirement complete.

 

I think we as leaders are always faced with those moral and ethical choices that is part of the mission of scouting. This is an ethical decision, and the answer depends on that vision thing that Barry promotes. Whatever your decision, make it consistent with your vision.(This message has been edited by venividi)

[5yearscouter]

Basement, where do you get that this leg will be healed by Thanksgiving?

Scout has been told that he will be in a leg/ankle brace of some kind at least thru Christmas,

 

He will not be released to go on a 5 mile hike for most likely much much longer due to the fracture in the growth plate.

 

so we aren't talking a delay of a month or two,

6 months to a year of delay here.

 

 

[5yearscouter]

and the update on time is the report at the most recent troop meeting. Scout is out for hiking for a LONG time, not just a few more weeks/month.

[Basementdweller]

In one of the earlier post I thought I saw two or three months.

 

It still isn't permanent. Even if it is six months to a year, he will still be first class before he is 13 year old..that only leaves 5 years to reach Eagle.

 

Again what is the rush????????

 

Sure he is dejected and you know it is normal and healthy.....this is time for a lesson in patience and not a lesson on manipulating the rules.

 

So which lesson are you teaching? Patience and playing by the rules? or playing the rules or changing the rules for your benefit?

 

Not judging just asking some questions.

 

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn]

Scouts advance at THEIR own pace - not some pace decided upon by their Scoutmaster (and though we'd hope the parents would allow the Scout to make the choice, we know in a lot of cases, it's the parents pushing the pace - we can't control that). The BSA makes sure there is the opportunity for a Scout to continue to advance at THEIR own pace even if they are temporarily disabled. It's not about "too easy", it's not about a Scoutmaster delaying advancement because it's "character building" - this is about one thing - is the Scout being allowed to advance and to continue to advance at THEIR own pace.

 

That's a big part of the aims and methods of Scouting as well - a Scout making their own individual choices. If this Scout looks at you and says they want to do this requirement as a Trip, which is allowed by the requirements, what makes anyone think that we adults have the right to impose our own "ethical" thinking on the lad and say no? A broken leg or ankle is already a barrier that a lad will have to surmount, he doesn't need some adults imposing even more barriers in the name of "character building". It can take as much character to accept using the requirement modification (and accepting help) when one temporarily has a need for it than it does to say no and wait for a year. And why should he have to wait for 6 months or a year? Because doing otherwise offends some adult's worldview on what it means to be ethical and to build character?

 

5year - you've already got a discouraged Scout who thinks his advancement is about to be put on hold, when in fact - in FACT - it doesn't need to be put on hold. There is a modification to the requirement that speaks directly to his temporary condition that will allow him to continue to advance AT HIS OWN PACE and will keep him engaged and moving forward, instead of sitting back more and more discouraged. What he needs is a Scoutmaster who isn't saying "well, ok, but if it's too simple...", what he needs is a Scoutmaster who says "Great - let's figure out how that's going to work and get you to where you want to be". Be careful of the "too easy" slippery slope - it may seem too easy to you (and parent) but it might not be that easy for a Scout. If the lad has, as you say, a bunch of experience with map and compass already, why wouldn't the 5 mile hike or bike ride be too easy as well? Remember, the requirements aren't to complete the hike or ride - they center around map and compass use - and if you're used to using map and compass in the woods, it can be difficult at first trying to figure out how to use map and compass to complete a circuit on a roadway or sidewalks.

[Venividi]

Calico,

 

I'm not offended by a decision either way. I'm simply suggesting that the aims of scouting be considered when making such decisions. Still we won't arrive at a consensus - it depends on what is most important to the decision maker. And I'm fine with that.

[qwazse]

BD - I've gotten myself quite thoroughly lost on forest roads. (Fortunately, as I explain to my boys, I got myself found just as often, and that's all that matters.) So don't judge 5yr's plan by the lowest common denominator. Making the boy wait does nothing toward helping him learn to navigate his patrol on a hike. It is your suggestion that violates the explicit intent of the requirement. You are the one wanting to manipulate the rules. And to what end? Teaching that the handbook is untrustworthy and his SM can fabricate rules as he goes along? ("Forget that reference, boy. We use EDGE, and that means I'm gonna explain what is really meant here.")

 

On the other hand, letting him work out the hike plan with his patrol, find a drivable route to each trail crossing, meet up with his guys and talk about obstacles that were and were not on the map, get his bearings, get a feel for how long it takes a few boys (as opposed to seasoned hunters) to traverse different terrain, etc ... All of that prepares the boy to be the best patrol leader he can be. That way his boys can count on him for that spring hike in the backcountry.

[5yearscouter]

The scout isn't sure he wants to use the starred substitute requirement for rank, so we'll leave it up to him if he wants to bring his book to be signed when this is completed,

or if he wants to do it again when he heals, or try yet another way on the next troop hike if he isn't healed by then.

 

regardless-- he's up for going on his trip while his patrol does the hike this weekend,

which will work to keep him engaged and excited.

 

 

"too easy" would be we get there, get in the vehicle and it's like driving on a paved road with no reason for him to use the map and compass at all. Hard to tell on the map how hard/easy/can you get lost or is it like driving on the freeway--since we haven't driven this particular area before.

 

Then again sometimes trails are like that too. go on the 5 mile hike with map and compass and the only thing you have to even think about on the particular trail is where to park at the trail head.

 

so would you ever decide a 5 mile hike with map and compass are too easy to count for the rank requirement? a paved trail that is so clear cut there is isn't a particular reason to carry a map and compass except if an adult makes the boys stop and see if they can find where they are on the map?(This message has been edited by 5yearscouter)

[Basementdweller]

Fair enough, I have never been lost on forest service roads.... Elk hunting in colorado and chasing whitetails in ohio, West Virginia and kentucky in a number of state and national forests. I did get lost in Colorado once but I was not on a road and I was chasing a blood trail, concentrating on that and not the map or keeping track of where I was going. I just don't see it as much of a challenge.

 

Now far as my being wrong or incorrect.....Not how I read the requirements for alternate. Point one on the following link.

 

1. The physical or mental disability must be of a permanent rather than a temporary nature.

 

We could argue the definition of permanent vs temporary.

 

temporary

   [tem-puh-rer-ee] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural -raries.

adjective

1. lasting, existing, serving, or effective for a time only; not permanent: a temporary need; a temporary job.

 

permanent

   [pur-muh-nuhnt] Show IPA

adjective

1.existing perpetually; everlasting, especially without significant change.

 

Even if his recovery takes a year it is still temporary.

 

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/earlyalt.aspx

 

This is how the requirement reads......taken from

 

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/AdvancementandAwards/secondclass.aspx

 

1b Using a compass and a map together, take a five-mile hike (or 10 miles by bike) approved by your adult leader and your parent or guardian.*

 

The asterisk takes you to the disability page noted above. A broken bone is not a permanent disability in this case.

 

So is this Cub scouting.....do your best or Boy Scouting where unless your truly disabled do the requirement as written. I am not adding to the requirement by requesting it be done as written, nor am I subtracting the requirement.

 

I am thru arguing about something so trivial.

 

In the troop I am involved with the advancement committee would make him wait till he is healed.

 

Note, we are a traditional troop, the boys advance roughly 1 rank per year.

[CalicoPenn]

"1b Using a compass and a map together, take a five-mile hike (or 10 miles by bike) approved by your adult leader and your parent or guardian.*

 

The asterisk takes you to the disability page noted above. A broken bone is not a permanent disability in this case."

 

Yeah - except that's not how the book reads - which just reminds us that sometimes there are differences between the books and what is posted on National's web site. Indeed, the asterix on the web site doesn't actually lead to anything. The disability note (which is also in the book) is marked not with an asterix but with a bullet point. And yes, there is a difference when reading the requirements.

 

The book includes this as the asterix:

 

* If you use a wheelchair or crutches, or if it is difficult for you to get around, you may substitute "trip" for "hike" in requirement 1b.

 

This appears before the note on disability requirements - and as I've mentioned, disability can result in a change of any of the requirements, and may take other forms to modify the requirement in question.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

figures.......

[qwazse]

Sorry I didn't look closely at the website. Guess I'm a "by the book" kind of guy!

 

I'm glad the boy's got a plan.

 

I generally expect the 5 mile hike to be one that requires map and compass. Parkland with cris-crossing trails (some unmarked) is the best. If it's one the older boys are used to, we either send them on an alternate hike, or train them to hang back and let the newbies do the navigating.

 

 

[SSScout]

Ideas:

1) Add panniers to the crutches.

2) Crampons on his cast.

3) Let the Patrol practice their rescue carries....

4) And do relay races at the meetings.

5) He will only be "temporarily disabled". Use this as an opportunity to discuss how we are all "temporarily abled".

6) Have everyone tie up their leg and try being crutch borne for a while.

7) Have a contest for the best alternative to "the crutch". Brainstorm ideas and build them. Must be a MB in this somewhere.

 

 

[5yearscouter]

He went on his trip yesterday,

but he's probably not going to count it for rank.

 

Cause while he navigated fine, they met with the boys on the trail part way, half way and back at camp by truck.

 

But he didn't actually have his map in the truck with him--he navigated without the map--

the other boys didn't have a map of the area to use for their 5 mile hike so he gave them his map to use.

 

 

[Venividi]

5year -

 

Looks like your boy is developing that sense of jblake's "take care of your boys". You must be bursting with pride. Make sure he knows how proud you are.

 

Actions like that deserve a special award. Our troop gave out awards that for a lack of a better name, I'ld call "scout spirit awards". Often these were more meaningful than BSA awards.