How would you explain that Reverent is important?

[Kudu]

OGE writes:

 

Memorize? Explain in own words? Sounds like more academic clap-trap and book work homework, exactly what Baden-Powell did not want scouting to be...

 

Baden-Powell expected his Scouts to memorize and explain the ideals of Scouting, not schoolwork stuff like Citizenship Merit Badges.

 

If he had wanted "Reverent" to be a Scout Law, he would have added it.

 

The same goes for Scout Spirit Requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review: all of which provide opportunities for adults to use Scout Law against Boy Scouts.

 

God as the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe provides intellectual Boy Scouts protection against what the YMCA imposed on American Scouting, and a tool with which to understand what Baden-Powell meant by a Duty to God.

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

>>"God as the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe"

[BadenP]

 

"for some questions there is no point in answering with words"-qwasze

 

A very good point indeed, especially in this case. God or the supernatural really does transcend our own limited vocabulary or ability to explain except on a very superficial level. God is truly experiential, and each experience is unique to that individual receiving it. Humanity loves to try to define "God" within the limitations of our own human experience, however the true understanding of "God" can not be done within set limits, but rather goes way beyond our own cognitive abilities. All we can do as humans is relate our own personal experiences in our feeble attempts to explain the nature of "God" to another person.

[Scoutfish]

I agree too.

 

I also wonder if trying to explain the importnace of reverent is a waste of time because...well, telling it's important is not going to make you feel it. Either you do or you don't. Something may hapen that changes your views and feelings, and any forthcomming experience might actually cause you to become reverent about something. But will me explaining how important it is make you feel it?

 

Nah, Either you do or don't feel it.

 

But on another note - and borrowing from what Baden P said:

 

" God or the supernatural really does transcend our own limited vocabulary or ability to explain except on a very superficial level. God is truly experiential, and each experience is unique to that individual receiving it. Humanity loves to try to define "God" within the limitations of our own human experience, however the true understanding of "God" can not be done within set limits, but rather goes way beyond our own cognitive abilities. All we can do as humans is relate our own personal experiences in our feeble attempts to explain the nature of "God" to another person."

 

WEll maybe, just maybe that's the line between athiest, thiests, and everybody else.

 

Maybe the fact that an athiest doesn't describe his experience in a way that we understand it. Maybe we don't explain our veiwpoint to an athiest the way we feel it.

 

Maybe we have excluded very reverent people who, due to failings of explanation and vocabulary on the human level , who in fact, have very revernt feels all the time. Maybe their reverence isn';t limited to a singular name of a common idea of God.

 

And then taking the qoute:

 

"God is the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe."

 

Then you have to readily admit that people who worship the earth, all anikmals and mother nature just might be doing the same thing as us, but in different words or definition.

 

Toe-may-toe / tah-mah-toe Is that stop sign scarlet, red, crimson,bright rose,or claret?

 

WEll, yes is is that color!

 

Do you wear slacks, trousers, pants, britches, or leggings( not the spandex ones).

 

Where is your house, home, abode, residence, dwelling, or shelter located?

 

I have a freind from Penn who asks me : "Do yens want a pop?" And she is asking me if I want a carbonated drink. Some of my friends say soda, soda pop, cola( in a genmeric way) , and even a fizzy.

 

Me? I say Coke, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Dr.Pepper, etc..I have never used a common one size all name for drinks. Don't know why, just nevcer did.

 

I also use the word "ain't" in both speaking and typing as well as "reckon".

 

Just something to think about.

 

WE may be excluding some of the best volunteers on earth based solely on human limitaions of human experience.

[qwazse]

I'm no universalist, by any stretch of imagination.

But, I know that for many post-moderns (i.e., nearly all of our boys), quoting verses is idle story time. Your religion might as well be another walk-through of a video game.

 

In that sense an animist may very well "get it" better than some text-parsing theologian. But, regardless of where you are on that spectrum ...

 

*You* are the best scripture a boy may ever read. How you act, not what you say, will help him determine if this reverent thing is all it's cracked up to be.

[Scoutfish]

"*You* are the best scripture a boy may ever read. How you act, not what you say, will help him determine if this reverent thing is all it's cracked up to be. "

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

I see too many parents and leaders who say one thing, then do another.

 

A scout leader who tells a boy to be hisbest and hold the boy to high standards, then that same leaders is at the back of the aprking lot, cussing a smoking 3 cigarettes in a row while telling 3 budies about the latest hot piece of butt he wants to tag after seeing it on the beach when he went on a drinking binge with his buddies.......in front of his son ..out of his wifes earshot.

 

No, I ain't perfect, but I try to lead by example when around the boys instead of just shooting off at the mouth about how they should be acting.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

BadenP writes:

You miss the point, we can not directly see "gods", but the National Parks for example give us an insight to the power of creation in nature in the formation of these sights that evoke some sort of awe witin ourselves that comes from a force or power far greater than ourselves.

 

I think you're missing my point; atheists can see the same thing, also feel "awe", but still be atheists. You claimed my definition of awe omitted an "essential" element, but it isn't. There really are atheists who feel awe who do not connect that feeling or the cause of that feeling with gods.

 

Kudu writes:

The trick is to teach an atheist Scout how to recognize and explain "natural laws" when he sees them,

 

Why do you need a "trick," Kudu? Don't you belong to an organization that says "NO ATHEISTS ALLOWED"? Just kick him out.

 

Oh wait, I just posted this a week ago in issues & politics:

 

http://www.loudountimes.com/index.php/news/article/potomac_falls_woman_removed_from_sons_boy_scout_troop123/

 

For some of you who continue to say there's no problem ignoring the rules (which I hear all the time is easily done to admit atheist kids):

 

It's really simple.

 

SM says she's a lesbian -> she gets kicked out

kid says he's an atheist -> he gets kicked out

 

But instead people dance around the issue. Why not just kick him out? Problem solved.

[Eagledad]

Kudu's explanation works well because it gives the scout permission to continue his scouting experience and discover his personal reverence. I once gave a Chappell service like this at Wood Badge. I call it the Wow Factor. "Wow!" being the reaction of a Scout who suddenly sees all the valleys and mountains 50 miles upon reacing a mountain peak, or watching mountain thunder shower five minutes away driving toward him. You cant predict when it will happen, but there are events that can force a scout to want an explanation in their awe of the moment.

 

Same with my explination of referencing the Scout Law. It is a broad reference that allows the scout to seek his on reverence from how we participate in the world that changes everyday of his perspective.

 

I dont really agree with BadenP that it can be explained by relating personal experiences. Oh Im sure that helps some scouts, but I still find that approach limiting the scouts experiences that can influence his reverence.

 

All that being said, I also agree that both the Scout and his parents need to understand that atheist cannot earn rank. Unless he changes his mind, scouting is only about the journey for him, which may be just fine.

 

Barry

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Hey Eagledad, an atheist can't even be a member, not just "not earn rank," according to the BSA.

 

Didn't you just write a week ago:

Ahh, the Do the right thing banner again. What is the right thing? Follow the rules, not follow the rules? Doing the right thing is sowing the seeds of anarchy because it pits individuals against each other instead of against the single rule or law. Once doing the right thing becomes acceptable over the law, the guy with the biggest stick wins.

[Eagledad]

True, but my wife is the first to say that I struggle with conflict and put it off as long as I possibly can. You can be assured that in my mind "he's out-a-here".

 

Barry

[BadenP]

Barry

 

Relating personal experiences/stories are what tribal cultures have done through the centuries to pass on their beliefs and traditions to the next generation. What do you think the Bible is for example, a series of experiences/stories passed down attempting to show the presence of "GOD" actively at work in the lives of the ancient Jews and early Christians, and humanity's acceptance and rejection of those interactions. The same can be said for the Torah, Koran, the writings of the ancient Asian philosophers, and the tribal cultures oral traditions.

[Eagledad]

Yes I completely agree for families and friends who want their son to learn about their specific religion. But that is not the responsibility of a mentor of boys of several different religions. The mentor guides the boy torward God, but not so much to influence him in conflict with his family.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't use personal examples, but it's a way of opening a scouts eyes without adding blinders at the same time.

 

Barry

[Eagledad]

Yes I completely agree for families and friends who want their son to learn about their specific religion. But that is not the responsibility of a mentor of boys of several different religions. The mentor guides the boy torward God, but not so much to influence him in conflict with his family.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't use personal examples, but it's a way of opening a scouts eyes without adding blinders at the same time.

 

Barry

[qwazse]

"Blinders" are in the eye of the beholder.

 

But I've seen more folks get a grip on their own faith as I've been able to spell out my own.

 

Anyway, seems that Merlyn finds it hypocritical that we might give a youth 7 years to decide if the Statement of Religious Principle is not for him, and we'd drum an adult out instantly.

 

My approach is a matter of pure practicality. Some American boys change their religion as often as they do their underwear. Imagine the scenario:

Monday (at scoutmaster conference):

"I'm and atheist."

"Okay turn in your membership card, and I don't want to see you in that uniform."

 

Tuesday (after his buddy talks to him):

"I believe in God now."

"Okay here's your card back. Wear your uni if you want."

 

Wednesday (after his girlfriend jilts him):

"That's it, there's no God"

"Give me your card. And take off the uniform."

 

Thursday (when he remembers about the campout this weekend):

"What was that 'sum of stuff' line that Mr. Kudu stuck me with? That's my higher power now."

"Here's the permission slip, get your folks' signature..."

 

Friday (after he hears me slip a cuss word about paperwork):

"Ya know, if you don't take it seriously, then I'm not ..."

"But we just bought all the food for the weekend. Now go find me a believer to take your place!"

 

There's no way on Monday that I can tell if a boy will be a strident unbeliever or more like the kid above. So do I buy into that roller coaster in some feeble attempt to "keep a pure flock" of scouts? Or do I shut my mouth and give the boys the time and space to grow into their belief while watching me try to sort out mine?

 

Well *my* religion says I gotta let the tares grow up among the wheat until I or anyone else can tell them apart. So that's my plan. Sorry, I didn't write the rules (nor did the BSA) ...(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[MattR]

I asked my Rabbi, who was a chaplain in the Air Force, how he would answer a 13 year old if he asked "Why should I be reverent to God?" This is his response:

 

"Good question. In fact the most important questions often come from the mouths of babes and suckingly ( a biblical quote). Now to the question. When we look at the meaning of the word reverent if can mean respectful so we can say a scout should be respectful to God. OK now to God. Without going into too much theology we think of God as representing the sum total of humanity's highest aspirations. After all, where did we learn these high hopes? So being respectful of God can mean we are respectful and work toward the application of our highest moral and ethical standards to be put into place on a daily level. We speak of God because otherwise we run the risk of making relative all that we hold dear. If morality is human in origin then it can be shifted to meet the needs of those in power and adjusted to fit the needs of the powerful. Such as slavery became a moral and ethical benefit according to the slaveholders. We know that ultimately the absolute God- given right of freedom triumphed. So we need a power and force outside and above human beings to give us ultimate and eternal truths. Therefore we are respectful of God because we have hope for humanity."

 

It has to be simplified a bit for the 13 year old I'm thinking of, but I like it.