How would you explain that Reverent is important?

[MattR]

I was in a SMC with a young scout and I asked him what reverent meant. He said he didn't know, so I told him it means you believe in God. He said "Oh, I'm atheist, I don't believe in God." Long pause. All I can think is oh boy, here we go. Good news was this conference didn't finish because it was late, and I have time to figure this out.

 

At this point this won't prevent him from advancing. If he tells me this at his Eagle SMC that's a different thing, but for now I'd like to work with him. I figure a lot of scouts are a work in progress. I'll also talk to his parents to make sure it's not just a kid checking boundaries but since he knew what atheist meant but not reverent it's certainly possible this came from home. But I will check.

 

I'd like to explain to him that Reverent is just as important as any other Point. Remember, this has to be free from any particular religion so "Hell ain't no picnic" can't be used.

 

This is what I'm thinking: To me, the Scout Oath and Law, if I were to put it in a single word, is about being selfless. And reverent certainly speaks to being selfless. You are not the center of the universe. It's not about you. It's easy to talk about selfless but unbelievably hard to be selfless. Why should I give a dollar to the homeless guy that looks like a drowned rat? I'll never see him again. He might end up spending the money on booze. That's being selfish. Whatever his problem, he likely needs your sympathy. But where does enough sympathy come from that you'll help people like this? It doesn't come from thinking or talking about it. After our discussion you're not going to suddenly change and help every homeless guy in town. It comes from believing in something bigger than you. You'll never see it but if you try hard you might feel it. When you do it's profoundly powerful. Many people call this God. The important thing is you have to work at being selfless. You have to constantly remind yourself that something is bigger than you and you're not the center of universe. That's why a lot of people go to religious services. I think it would be great if you could feel what I'm talking about. But how are you going to get there?

 

I'm not sure I'll get much of a response, but at least I'll have tried.

 

So how would you explain that Reverent is important?

 

[BS-87]

This question is far too important to be in the Issues and Politics section... Definitely a Program Discussion question...

 

Anyway. The boy definitely could use counsel on the subject, and it'd be wrong to advance him without he and his family having that discussion. Notice I say he and his family. Let it be known to the parents that you couldn't pass him through a Scoutmaster Conference at this time because he needs to learn more about the 12th point and decide whether he really is an atheist or not.

 

You can offer to help, and point out that believing in any higher power which serves as that purpose for which we all aim to do "good" will suffice. He doesn't need to be Creationist, he doesn't need to be on his knees praying, and he doesn't need to have a personal relationship with that higher power. All he needs is to have an understanding of some higher purpose that makes live valuable instead of purely chemical and futile.

 

Really though, this is a conversation the family needs to have. If he truly rejects all notions of "reverence", then he really cannot get the full message of Scouting and inasmuch will not advance. Being young and impressionable yet though, I'd keep him around in hopes that he could learn something...

[Tampa Turtle]

This is where you have more wiggle room with an Agnostic then an Atheist. If a boy said "I would like to believe there is a God but I am not sure he is real" you can counsel him to work on it and how can you be reverent just in case.

[perdidochas]

Reverent means showing deep and solemn respect for. I can see an atheist being reverent to other's beliefs, in terms of being tolerant and respectful to other's beliefs. (I think atheism is incompatible with scouting is "Duty to God." Atheists can be(and often are) reverent. )

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

"So how would you explain that Reverent is important?"

 

First, I'd get a correct definition; yours of "it means you believe in God" is totally wrong. "Monotheism" means that, but not reverent.

 

reverent: feeling, exhibiting, or characterized by reverence; deeply respectful: a reverent greeting.

reverence: a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.

 

No gods necessarily involved.

[qwazse]

I think with younger kids you want to start with the dictionary definition.

 

I could care less if your statement of faith matches mine, if you are generally disrespectful at anyone's religion (or lack thereof), that needs to change.

 

If the kid can handle "respecting the religion of others" for now (e.g., not being disruptive in church if he has to go, not teasing his friends or enemies over matters of faith), that's a start for Tenderfoot.

 

You do need to inform the parents about the discussion, and the expectation in scouting is that as the boy matures his opinion will grow (however nebulous) towards respecting a deity. And it needs to be clear that advancement to Eagle depends on him being able to describe that in his own terms.

[BadenP]

 

 

"A feeling of reverence, awe, and respect" is true Merlyn, but your definition lacks an essential element, revering, respecting, awe inspired of what, who, and why. If it is awe of a place, thing or person then the question is why are you in awe of it?

You can pussyfoot all you want around the elephant in the room but reverent implies an understanding of something or a power greater than ourselves.

 

Our National Parks are a good example as many people say they are awestruck by the parks beauty and most acknowledge a force greater than themselves are responsible for their creation. Whether you want to call it scientific forces or a creative force it opens the doors to a myriad of additional questions. In other words the term reverent is not a simple black or white definition, it goes beyond our own basic understanding of the world around us.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

BadenP writes:

"A feeling of reverence, awe, and respect" is true Merlyn, but your definition lacks an essential element, revering, respecting, awe inspired of what, who, and why.

 

Nope, it just means that things other than gods can be revered.

 

If it is awe of a place, thing or person then the question is why are you in awe of it?

 

It's an emotional reaction. Are you saying anything that causes "awe" has to have a god behind it?

 

Our National Parks are a good example as many people say they are awestruck by the parks beauty and most acknowledge a force greater than themselves are responsible for their creation.

 

And some don't. This doesn't change things.

 

Whether you want to call it scientific forces or a creative force it opens the doors to a myriad of additional questions. In other words the term reverent is not a simple black or white definition, it goes beyond our own basic understanding of the world around us.

 

But it doesn't necessarily involve gods.

[BadenP]

Merlyn

 

You miss the point, we can not directly see "gods", but the National Parks for example give us an insight to the power of creation in nature in the formation of these sights that evoke some sort of awe witin ourselves that comes from a force or power far greater than ourselves. Hurricane Irene is another current example of this same power.

Now tell me Merlyn do you think you are greater than the power of nature? Shinto and Buddhists do not have a "god" in their religions but they do have the recognition of the power and creation in the natural world. Reverence goes way beyond going to church every Sunday and reading holy books.

[MattR]

Two points. First, the Scout Handbook describes the 12th point as "A scout is reverent towards God. He is faithful to his religious duties and respects the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion." The first sentence is the important part. It's not vague and it definitely mentions God.

 

Second, I'm just looking for ideas on how to explain why a scout should be reverent towards God. I've already decided how I want to handle the situation. So, if a 13 year old asked you "Why should I be reverent towards God?" what would you tell him. It's a really honest, innocent question, and we should be able to answer it. I want to approach this scout as if he had asked that question. It's positive. It encourages discussion. And if I can't answer that question then I'm not such a great scoutmaster.

 

Maybe BS87 is right and this should be moved elsewhere, but for now I'll leave it here.

 

[packsaddle]

"So, if a 13 year old asked you "Why should I be reverent towards God?" what would you tell him."

The answer is easy for me, "IF there is an all-present, invisible, supernatural being out there that can blink the entire universe in or out of existence, what more do you want?" "Can YOU think of something that WOULD command reverence if THAT doesn't?"(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Kudu]

It's the supernatural stuff to which most atheist Scouts object.

 

When a Scout tells me he is an "atheist," I ask him to memorize and then explain in his own words what Carl Sagan reported to be Einstein's summary of Spinoza's pantheist definition of God:

 

"God is the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe."

 

The trick is to teach an atheist Scout how to recognize and explain "natural laws" when he sees them, so I hold the follow-up Scoutmaster Conference on a campout as we build and then light a campfire.

 

The role of pantheism in Baden-Powell's "Nature Knowledge:"

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[Eagledad]

God is the source of the 12 points of the law. Only through a higher source can all humans be equal.

 

Barry

[OldGreyEagle]

"When a Scout tells me he is an "atheist," I ask him to memorize and then explain in his own words what Carl Sagan reported to be Einstein's summary of Spinoza's pantheist definition of God: "

 

Memorize? Explain in own words? Sounds like more academic clap-trap and book work homework, exactly what Baden-Powell did not want scouting to be...

 

Leastwise thats what I have been told

[qwazse]

OGE, the point is that God (now matter how generally we define it) is a distinctly human construct. The boy's puppy isn't concerned about it at all. So, he's come to the conclusion that he doesn't need to be either. We want to show him that other people think differently.

 

Now we can argue 'till we're blue in the face about that construct coming from external or internal sources -- wether it's personal or impersonal. (I tend to believe, after these few years of living, that it's external and quite personal. Some of my psychologist colleagues say otherwise.)

 

So, to rephrase Kudu (a foolish thing to do indeed), say to the boy "come hike with us". On the hike, point out the few things that really amaze you. At the end of the day, explain (in a couple of scentences) why the things your saw give you a higher regard for the God you worship. Give the boys a chance to chime in -- there may be a boy who's particularly good at that sort of thing.

 

Sure, maybe quoting Spinoza would be the scholarly thing to do. I don't think it's essential. As the boy grows he may want to know why nearly all of humanity buys into this higher power thing, but for now he's focused on "what's in it for me?" The out-of-doors is the best tool for dulling narcissim that I have ever seen.

 

Lather - rinse - repeat. More outings, less talk. MattR - for some questions, there's no point in answering with words.