New Troop/Finances

[sheilab]

Hi Everyone

I would appreciate your help and feedback as this forum seems to have an enormous amount of combined experience. I apologize for this post being pretty long.

 

My son and two other boys (Eagles) wanted to start a new troop due to the prior troop being adult lead and some negativity by adults. I found the church and the boys within one week made it happen. 15 scouts (3 different troop, 4 younger and the rest older and Eagles), SM, 2 ASMs and 9 committee members, we had our first weekly meeting the beginning of this month, I am impressed by their dedication and willingness. Starting a new troop is a financial struggle for both scouts and adults which is what I would like your opinions about. We have been lucky, received many donations, complete flags, $600, Troopmaster, MB books, blue cards and MB card holders. The SM presented the scouts annual budget to the committee and I took their budget and put together an annual budget including their budget, what the troop needs including charter which we do not pay for 18 months and presented to the committee. Personalities came flying, not because of the budget but who pays for what and which account money goes into. I expected this since most of us came from a troop where the parents paid $150 for due and the scouts said I want this activity and we ran around making it happen. I believe most of us want each scout to financially support their program. There is no policy/procedure on who pays for what and what account it goes to; however there are many guidelines referring to BSA goal is that every boy raise enough money to cover his program expenses for the year and I did talk to the program director at council and that is also what he said along with our commissioner. I know the COR owns the troop and can ultimately say what goes. Our COR attends all committee meetings and would prefer for us to work it out. Since the goal is for each scout to pay their own way most of us are leaning towards a portion of the fundraisers to go to the general account until that covers what the troop needs for the year and all remaining fundraisers whoever shows up gets divided up between the scouts in their individual account. Is this realistic or fair, I am not sure. I do believe finances is important, a life skill and the scouts need the opportunity to learn budgeting and pay their way. The individual accounts are good for this and once they see they have reached their goal they will have a sense of pride, achievement and raise their own bar so to speak. I read a case study about individual accounts and the results from the study was increased participation in unit money earning projects, increased involvement from parents and boys, increased participation in unit activities and summer camps and greater retention rates. We have scouts that are in OA and this would also help them participate in those events since OA does not fundraise. I could be totally off base, I think the boys should know about the money incoming and outgoing and be able to have input in that decision; however they do not totally understand all financial aspect and should have the opportunity to learn. Isnt this called guiding them so they can learn a life skill? How is putting all funds into the general account or even select fundraiser achieving the goal of each scout be accountable for their own program. I can see what would happen putting all money in the general account, the over achievers will be paying the way for other scouts that chose not to participate and then the parents will be complaining. One comment from a parent was when a scout becomes more concerned about their own individual account, they lose sight of the fact that a Troop is like a team. They are all accountable for supporting and helping the team first. Not sure if I agree with this when the scout have goals, but I do know this particular does not want son to fundraise; however she is willing to select a few fundraiser to support the troop account. Being a new troop we have the opportunity to do things different or correct. We do not want to get lost in the verbiage of whatever the boy want, we need to support the boys or it is the scouts choice. We all feel that for the most part those are correct; however we also have other responsibilities to the boys, I hop that made since. Your inputs would be appreciated?

[fred8033]

Wow. Sheilab haven't you been dealing with troop financial / leadership issues for a year or more? Not much fun to go through that stuff.

 

Financially, BSA leaves alot to the CO and troop to work through.

 

 

Personally (not reflecting BSA rules) ...

 

 

... I prefer ... All adults (leaders and parents, even the scoutmaster) to pay their own way. (except rechartering... troop budget pays for adult registration)

 

... I prefer ... Troop "dues" covers the troop annual budget include rechartering, COH food, supplies and equipment purchases. Our troop dues are $75 a year. Troops really don't need that much even. I bet we could get by with $50 but we want a safety net.

 

... I prefer ... Every campout is a "break even" event. (i.e. don't plan to earn or lose money for the troop)

 

... I prefer ... MORE IMPORTANT TO ME ... 100% of fundraiser profits going to scout accounts. If scouts want to pay their dues from scout account, that's fine.

 

 

As a parent or as a scout, if I was to get little or none of the fundraiser profits, I'd soon stop selling. Especially, if I saw other families not sell. Scout supports troop by helping out physically and paying their fair share (dues) and covering their own costs (camping). More than that is covering for someone else who is not doing their fair share.

 

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[sheilab]

Thank you Fred8033.

I have been dealing with finances/leadership for over 2 years from the prior troop and it was not fun, way too much drama for me. Being a new troop with good parents we now have an opportunity to do thing different. Of course we well never all agree on everything, but we are pretty close. Our leadership with the adults/scout is really good. The SM and the ASMs are wonderful and this is the first time I have ever seen the SM and ASMs allow the boy to take full advantage of the patrol-method. It is a little strange to see them sit in the back of the room and not get involved until they need to. We really need to decided on the finances. Who pays for what, what account and who makes that decision. Keeping it simple would be great. I think the adults are a little paranoid, we are not arguing just paranoid given our history with other troops but do want to make it work and make sure all opportunities are available for the boys. I am all for fundraising going to the individual accounts but when I heard scouts become more concerned about their own individual account and lose site of a troop being a team and they are all accountable for supporting and helping the team first I was a little concerned. I suppose I am being overly concerned and should stick to my gut instinct.

[boomerscout]

be careful with individual Scout accounts. They can be used for membership fees, camp fees. The problem is if the Scout uses them for gear purchases, you may well run afoul of the law for non-profits.

Since we try hard to keep us Scout led, the Scouts - at least the Patrol leaders Council - has full access to the books at any time. They know what money comes in and when. Knowing this, and passing it on to the other Scouts, helps make troop fundraisers a better success because they now have a specific need for the money to go somewhere/ do something they've all bought into

[sheilab]

Yes, we also talked about have the indiviudal accounts used for their dues, OA events, uniforms etc. Basically it was their choice how they spent their money, of course scout related. The general account we thought was for what startup costs we need (Patrol patches, troop numbers, Class B, ECOH rank advancement, MB, neckerchiefs and approx 4 -6 webelos crossing over). Once this was accomplished either as a percentage of fundraising or all the fundraing till the money is in the general account. Then at that point each fundraiser was divided between the boys who showed and in their individual accout. I think sometimes we get stuck on if we are truly boy led.... To me that does not mean the scout make all decision and do what they want, there are areas they need guidance and budgeting i believe is important. I am meeting with the PLC tonight to show them what we really need in the general account for a year and ingage them in what they think about how to come up with this money. Absolutely they should know all aspects of the money there are no secrets.

[shortridge]

So let's say you have Scouts fundraise until they hit the goal of $5,000 for the year for troop operations. Then anything they raise above & beyond that goes straight into their individual Scout accounts. Correct?

 

So what happens when a Scout joins mid-year? Even if your fiscal year runs July-June, Scouts joining in February (e.g., former Webelos who've just crossed over) would automatically get a percentage of the money into their Scout accounts straight off the bat, without having done anything to support the troop. The boys who worked the first half of the year (or, more likely, their parents) could claim they were "cheated."

 

It's messes such as this that make me despise Scout accounts. They put the Scout above the group, instead of the group above the Scout. Keep it simple. Put everything into the general fund, make a budget, stick to it, let the PLC decide how to use it on program.

[John-in-KC]

Troops are not inexpensive propositions:

 

- Equipment.

 

- Fuel for drivers, especially at LT camp time, and especially if someone is hauling cargo in a truck bed or a trailer.

 

- Advancements and awards.

 

There is information about budgeting at Scouting.org. This worksheet popped the top of a google search:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/magazine/524-426.pdf

 

During the startup couple years, I'd recommend a low mix between funds retained by the unit and funds allocated to the Scout from unit fundraising. I'd also be sure of an activity threshold that qualifies the Scout to receive support.

[boomerscout]

if they slack/won't do troop fundraising, then they are not showing enough Scout spirit, and don't get that rank advancement requirement signed off.

This is a reason fundraisers need to be varied, and not all sales type

 

I don't believe individual accounts can legally be used to buy uniforms. However, if the troop gives everyone a uniform or part of, as certain criteria are met, that is probably OK

[fred8033]

boomerscout: Scout spirit is something that both leaders and scouts are supposed to have. It's about how you lead your personal life and how you treat others.

 

I would NEVER NEVER NEVER deny advancement based on fundraising. Period. It's just way too small a part of scout spirit. And generally, scout spirit is something the scout and SM decide together thru discussion at an SMC ... except in extreme cases.

 

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I use this link all the time to answer how to apply advancement issues such as scout spirit, active and such.

 

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/home/boyscouts/guideformeritbadgecounselors/rankadvancefaq.aspx

 

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John-in-KC: Good response. For our troop, other than rechartering cost, we spend less than $1200 a year, but we are a long established troop. The troop budget (including rechartering) is covered by $75 dues annually. The $1200 is for advancement, food, supplies and replacement equipment (two or three tents a year, maybe a lantern, a stove ...). Stove fuel is budgeted into event fee.

 

For some troops, you are very right. For another troop in our home town, they have $100 dues AND need to sell $40,000 in popcorn each year to break even. Yes, more scouts. But the key difference is they cover **ALL** adult costs (car/truck fuel, camp fees, etc.) Where they have 50 kids at summer camp, they will also have 25+ adults at camp too, all paid for by the troop. On monthly weekend camps, they routinely have 20+ adults at the event ... all paid for by the scouts fundraising. ... I have a real problem with this, but it's not my troop. So you just smile and move on.

 

Our troop is the other extreme. To avoid creating issues / questions like this, the SM, CC (me) and other leaders fully pay our way except ... troops pays our registration. We may increase camp event fee to cover fuel if it is more than 100 miles each way but few ask for reimbursement. Also, the troop pays for four adults at summer camp ($90 per person, $360 total cost). If more stay ""all"" week, then we split the four paid across those who stayed all week and the each person covers the difference.

 

There is really no standard practice for troop finances, fundraising or scout accounts.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

When my son was a youth member, we all paid our way. Period.

 

The person who drove the Troop trailer was reimbursed gas, both for weekends and for LT camp.

 

Our budget number was $150 a year for operations.

 

We fundrose those first years about $10K for tents, lanterns, cooking gear, etc.

 

From my experience, every troop is an individual concern.

[SSScout]

Our Troop finances are divied up as follows:

Troop account, Scout account. Treasurer keeps track of both, books are available anytime.

Scout can use his account money for anything Scout related. Summer camp fees, yearly dues, Philmont, even a new pair of boots or uniform parts.(bring in the receipt). One Scout many years ago, saved up his Scout account and bought the Troop a new trailer.

The Scout account is earned thru a simple calculation. The fundraiser is Holiday/Christmas wreaths. After expenses, the first ten items sold earns the Scout $5 each , the remainder goes to the Troop. Item eleven and up, the first $5 goes to the Troop, the remainder to the boy's account. Note: We do have "sidewalk sales", all of which go to the Troop.

Troop funds pay for awards, camp deposits, neckers, Classbs, equipment, recharter. Events (hikes, campouts, etc.) are pay as you go).

Dues: Adult fees of registered leaders are paid by the Troop. Scout dues are presently set at $100. a year, which includes the National registration, liability insurance (Council), Boys' Life, and the Troop expenses. Note: It turns out that the Council maintains a slush fund, that it uses to calculate a prorated dues/fee for each Scout thru the year. If the Scout joins after September, they still "officially" pay the $16. but it is divided and prorated for the coming months. Therefore, it turns out that each unit can have a "credit" with the Council, which can amount to a significant amount, but no one ever can tell you what it might be, or how it is applied.

How to pay the $100.? Choices: 1) pay the whole $100. in September. 2) Pay $50. upfront in September, use the November fundraiser to pay another $50. or 3)opt out of the fundraiser and pay another $50., keeping in mind that campfees and such will have to be paid personally, when needed.

 

"A Scout is Thrifty. A Scout works to pay his own way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property."