Scout with Criminal Record

[Scoutfish]

WEll I am either very impressed or confused:

 

" I have discovered confidentially that a 15 year old Scout in my son's Troop has a criminal record such as dealing methamphetamines, among other offenses, and is a confirmed gang member by a local police department. "

 

" No, arrest is a very recent one, one of several increasing recently, probably as a result of the gang involvement "

 

 

 

So, does the justice system work very fast there - the boy being arrestd, stand trial and convictyed and records updated/ created that fast to work with " arrest is a very recent one" ?

 

Or is the possibility there that somebody is a "credible Source" just without crdibility?

 

And we all know those credible sources too. Thay have garanteed acurate info on anything...except is isn't accurate.

 

I personally heard from 3 people about a friends house that had burned down due to a huge woods fire along with an entire moble home park. This was about 2 months ago. The info ven made it to facebook with nearly 50 people confirming that they knew it to personally be true themselves.... Except that the house of my friend had burned an entire month earlier and the mobile home park..wich according to a good MANY credible sources..is still there today havinmg be entirely and completely untouched by the fire.

 

Just saying, people will pass along what they suspect to be true, which they may think is true or would expect to be true...except that they have no more qualified info than that they think or expect it....not know it.

 

 

" probably as a result of the gang involvement "

 

" probably as a result of the gang involvement (emphasis mine)

 

Probably..possibly..maybe? GUessing it could be, but in actuality, having no idea whatsoever.

 

Now, not bashing you or chastizing you, just saying, so far, there isn't actually ant knowledge so far except "could be, might be, probably, and somebody said so".

 

Hey, when I was 19, I'd drink beer and even smoked some pot. 4 years after I quit, I had somebody approach me while on a FD and say they had a very reliable source say I was using cocane. I told them that we could jump in the car and go have a drug test taken right there and on the spot if they wanted to. Then I insisted that I have the test taken. Then I told that person to have their reliable source "Prove" the info they were claiming.

 

Basically, the "source: remembered seeing me at a party wehere ZI was hoilding an open ber in my hand, and that person left before they actually saw me take a drink. But they assumed that :

 

1) since I was holding it, I must be drunk. ( I was drinking it, but far from drunk.)

2) Since some of the other people who where at the party had bragged about cocane at some point in there past...I must be a coke head too.( I have never touched the stuff!!!) I also didn't happen to know the people in question who were there.

3)The source put 2 and 2 together without any evidence , but went with it anyways since it probably made sense.

 

In the end, they were completley wrong, except for the fact I did indeed drink some beer. And I doi n ot deny it now, althought I can readily admit and also realize that it wasn't the smart or right thing to do. Same with the weed. Not smart, not right, and not cool. But you know - that was over 20 years ago. I haven't touched it since then, ansd as of now, I mighgt crack a beer about 4 or 5 times within a ten year span.

 

Does this mean I am a horrible influece or a bad leader ( I am the CM of my pack)?

[BadenP]

Eng61

 

You sound just like Chicken Little and the sky is falling in, lol. You miss the whole point of the thread, this kid is in the troop trying to find an alternative to his former life and in MOST troops the adults can easily handle one kid. I think this mother is just overly concerned but without anything substantial to back up her accussations, probably why she closed her accout here right after she opened it. Teenage boys always act tough around each other without it meaning anything every boy and scout leader knows that from personal experience. If your troop is closing its doors to a youth trying to find his way then you are violating the part of the Scout Oath that says "to help other people at ALL times.", just what do you think that really means Eng61?

 

It is bad enough we are dealing with an ever growing number of poorly trained and basically unmotivated, easy chair, boy scout leaders in this era of "Cupcake Scouting" resulting in weak and boring troop programs, and boys dropping out at ever increasing numbers. But to knowingly turn away a boy who WANTS to be a scout because he had some trouble with the law is being a totally irresponsible scout leader. You should really read some of Baden Powell's and Bill Hillcourt's writings about what it means to be a Scoutmaster sometime, Eng61.

[5yearscouter]

Sounds like time for a scoutmaster conference with the boy to privately find out what is going on in his life, what the rumors are that are going around, behavior at troop outings and expectations for improvement in behavior. Or maybe that's been done and it needs to go up a notch to a scoutmaster, CC, committee person(COR or other) "board of review" to determine if this is a discipline issue that can be solved within the troop and create a plan of action to help the boy out, or if the boy is more than the adults know how to deal with. Either way a meeting to explain the no drugs, no violence, no bullying rules of the troop, set up expectations, and set up a bit of support for when the boy needs help with a particular issue.

 

Boy Scouts alone can't fix these things, but these things can be working on within the troop structure, expectations and ideals, but you do have to keep your eyes open for whether the scout wants to change or is pulling your chain, or sneaking drugs into your scouts, etc.

 

[John-in-KC]

My two cents:

 

Mom, Dad (or surrogates), SM, CC, and COR need to have a friendly, yet decidedly serious conversation. If all the grownups can get on one sheet of music, then the boy, the SPL, and his PL join them.

 

Everyone, family, adult leadership, and youth leadership, have to have skin in this game. If all work together, this can be a life changer

[Eagle92]

As someone who has worked with at risk you, both professionally and as a volunteer, I have mixed emotions.

 

One one side I have seen youth "play the game" trying to gain respectability, and in the case I am very well acquainted with, fool a bunch of folks into thinking he was reformed, only to get arrested a month after release from the program he was in. Yep I was his "chief" and he even fooled me. Worst part is that one of the other folks released from the program, and who was in the same group as the first gentlemen, was also arrested with him. Apparently they developed a real good friendship in the program and decided to try working together in crime when both got out. Luckily they were caught and sent to Boot Camp, maybe that will help.

 

BUT, I've also seen one young man who was with a wild group, and he enjoyed scouting. Yes he got sent home from camp, the entire group was kicked out, but he was actually invited back as staff for the next year.

 

The key IMHO is you have to give them a chance, but when it start hurting others, then it's time to give them an ultimatum, or even dismissal.

[Twocubdad]

Tough situation.

 

In most cases, I would agree with John that the principals should sit down and work out a plan. I would expect the Scout to be involved in the plan and I would expect that he show the appropriate remorse and contrition regarding his actions.

 

Depending on what he had done (and dealing meth would be about as serious as it gets) I would also expect some cooling-off time so everyone can clearly see that all the indicators are headed up. A reasonable cooling-off time may be until all the legal proceedings have been settled.

 

But that all depends on all the principals -- mainly the CC, SM and COR -- fully understanding the situation and having the opportunity to evaluate it. That doesn't seem to be the situation here. The OP's issue is whether or not to share what she knows (however she may have learned it) with those principals.

 

All other things being equal and not knowing all the mitigating and aggravating circumstances, as a SM I would want to know if a Scout in my troop has been arrested for dealing meth. What we would do with that information would depend on the particulars. I can envision situations where we would embrace the Scout and even appear in court on his behalf. I can also envision situations where he would be immediately dropped.

 

But I believe the unit leaders should be allowed to make that decision based on the best interest of troop.

[Alabama Scouter]

I had a similar situation a few years ago. Wherever there was trouble, this boy was close by. And there was trouble often.

 

Dissension between patrols and divisiveness was becoming more present. We were on a bad road

with nothing good to come of it. Parents were coming to me with unfortunate regularity with concerns.

 

I finally after 10 months of research and investigation had to boot the scout. Almost within a month, our problems started to dissipate. As important as working with one troubled youth is, and it is, I was unwilling to place 24 at risk because of one.

 

This still troubles me, but in retrospect was the correct decision.(This message has been edited by Alabama Scouter)

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Yep, that's right. I don't have that experience and I don't PRETEND to have it.

 

Scouts are expected to live the Scout oath and law. It's NECESSARY that they do so for Scouting to work.

 

Frankly, from the description given this boy is disrupting the Scouting program and chasing boys out of the troop. Maybe you want to hang on to that individual, I would not.

 

 

As I said, I'd counsel him and advise him that he needs to live up to the Scout oath and law, and if he doesn't he will be suspended from the program. That might be a week should a first incident occur, two weeks the second time and a month off should a third incident occur.

 

Something like that would be entirely reasonable in my view.

 

I would not be overlooking any more bad behavior.

[qwazse]

SP - I agree, but that has nothing to do with a scout's alleged criminal record.

 

We've had "very good" boys brought before the committee and given the "shape up our ship out" lecture. We've also had boys going through the court system concurrently serve as SPL.

 

Eng - It doesn't take a thug for your worst-case scenarios to occur. I assure you, if I knew which boy was more likely to do such fool things, I'd lock the doors on him today. Fact is, your best teen with the best parenting is just as likely (and probably better resourced) to exact profound evil before you can stop him.

[OldGreyEagle]

OK, let me see if I have this right

 

We need adult leaders who are outdoors savy enough to implement and support a high adventure program that brings excitement to the youth

 

I can do that

 

These adult leaders need to be trained in the BSA for the position they hold as well as Wilderness First Aid, and CPR

 

I can do that

 

These individuals need the resources to have equipment that allow them to support the program the PLC comes up with

 

Not as well as I would like

 

and

 

These adults have to have the skills to work with good boys, the ones who do what they are told as well as the ones who don't think any rule applies to them.

 

Starting to question my abilities here

 

and we wonder why good leaders are hard to find

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello qwazse,

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Scouts are expected to live the Scout oath and law. It's NECESSARY that they do so for Scouting to work.

 

Nah, I don't really think so. Are yeh sure you do?

 

Scouts are learning how to live the Scout Oath and Law. We adults are still learning how to live the Oath and Law. None of us is perfect, and to be honest most of us (myself fer sure) aren't always even that good at it. The boys are just startin' out. All that's necessary is that we all try, at least some of the time.

 

That havin' been said, when I see troops strugglin' with behavioral issues I sorta have a notion in my head about "capacity." Different troops have different capacity for different things. Some troops have the resources to run their own high adventure trips several times a year. Some struggle to get lads to summer camp. Both are doin' all they can for the boys, but odds are if yeh tried to push the second troop to do what the first is doin' they'd be dangerous. They don't have the ability to run their own high adventure stuff without puttin' kids at risk.

 

Same with lads who are strugglin' with personal issues. Some scouters have the personal background and skills to do a great job with such boys, and some troops have a strong youth culture and parent community to be able to provide the support to really reach some kids who are at risk. Other scouters and units are at loggerheads over who said what to whom about the popcorn sale, and they can't accommodate an at-risk lad without everything comin' unglued.

 

What's important is just bein' honest with yourself about your own ability and da capacity of your unit. If yeh truly can handle some at-risk boys, because yeh have skilled scouters, a strong youth culture and supportive parents, then da Oath and Law call you to do so. But if yeh don't have all of the ingredients necessary, then yeh have to be honest and say to a boy "we can't handle where you're at right now; your choices are puttin' the program at risk for other participants beyond what we're comfortable with" and direct him elsewhere for support.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

Fascinating discussion here:

Seattle Pioneer and Jtswestark Westarks points make sense and are what first came to my mind: one bad kid can cause a lot of trouble, and if hes especially bad, he can be dangerous, even lethal. Not everyone is prepared to handle such kids and not everyone who is prepared wants to. As far as I know, BSA does not expect that because we signed up we signed up for that.

 

Folks who want to take on that role (ref qwazse & BadenP posts) are doing a great service and we can all wish them success without feeling as if were shirking by not doing the same.

 

No call for any moral exhibitionism either way.

 

Beavah hit the nail on the head, and would have driven in all the way if hed been holding the hammer so as to let the weight of the head do the work rather than trying to muscle it in. Different troops have different capacity for different things and What's important is just bein' honest with yourself about your own ability and da capacity of your unit. Amen Brothah. And its not just capacity that matters, there are different preferences and choices as well. One troop may rehabilitate rough kids, another may toughen up soft ones; one may lean more toward rugged high adventure outdoorsman-ship; another more toward basic outdoor competency and heavy computer and robotics geekdom (and still another may be hard over in both directions); one may strive ever more toward the ever elusive Helicopter Scouter ideal; and another may veer more toward an adult led Cupcake Catastrophe.

 

But E-61s point is pointy. If your troop is a haven for wayward boys, former meth dealers, violent offenders, kids that dont lift the toilet seat, that sort of thing and along comes a new recruit, one Poindexter Fauntleroy Helicopterson, scion of the well-bred Helicopterson family, (thats the Boston Helicoptersons, not those plebian Helicoptersons over in Scranton). Young Poindexter shows up to join the troop and you can tell by the cut of his jib that maybe this aint his crowd. Do you mention to him or his parents that if he joins up, hell find that his troop mates dont have quite the same background as his mates on the fencing team or the guys he races with in the Yacht Clubs Junior Division? And then let them make an informed decision? Or do you withhold information that a reasonable person might expect to be something folks would want to know about the situation they are joining? Lets assume here there are ways of communicating this without revealing legally sealed details.

 

Some states publish statistics on juvenile offender recidivism rates some of this sort of info is available online.(This message has been edited by Callooh! Callay!)

[BadenP]

CC

 

Your last post you paint an extreme polar opposite of reality. If a boy with a troubled past comes up to you and asks to join your troop because he is trying to leave his past behind, start over and really wants to be a scout you would turn him away because of that past and imply he is not good enough to join your troop? Then you are SHIRKING your responsibility as a scout leader. Look I have had supposedly good kids in my troop who were absolute terrors and disruption to the group, they got put in their place fast and told no more or you are gone.

 

A boy who tells me he is looking to change I will bend over backwards to make sure he is given every opportunity to do just that, as EVERY scout leader should. You establish that bond of trust at the get go and just watch what happens, it doesn't take special skills or training to work with these kids just a genuine desire to help.

[Engineer61]

Wow guys...

 

We're not talking about the parents here folks ... but the boys ... specifically their safety ...

 

From some of these replies, it sounds like some of you are more interested in the ego boost you'll get from the challenge than doing what's best for your boys.

 

If you want to do that, fine...do it outside the Troop.

 

From... http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx

 

Member responsibilities. All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Physical violence, theft, verbal insults, drugs, and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scouts membership.(This message has been edited by Engineer61)