asm

[eaglemetals]

is there a national policy on den chiefs serving in the scouts mom's den and can den chief be used for a leadership position in more than 1 rank. if so can the sm restrict this behavior?

[NealOnWheels]

No national policy.

 

Can be used for more than one rank.

 

Scoutmaster approves who can be a den cheif. So he can "restrict this behaviour".

 

What is the real issue here?

[eaglemetals]

we have several scouts, who intend on using the one mom's den for all of their leadership positions. i feel they are not experiencing all of what scouting has to offer, our younger scouts are not benefitting from the change in leadership, and it creates an uneven advancement situation for the scouts who are calling upon an adult stranger with an unfamiliar den.

[EagleBeaver]

It sounds weird that 'several scouts' are using the den chief position in the same den - I'd say one den chief would be appropriate.

 

It's really a position of 'responsibility' rather than 'leadership'. A scout advancing to Star and Life doesn't need to lead others, but does need to demonstrate responsibility in fulfilling duties. As long as the expectations of the position are defined, the scoutmaster periodically checks with the scout that the expectations are being fulfilled and goals are being met, then using the same position for each rank is fine.

 

I'd hope their scoutmaster would counsel those scouts to expand their horizons and try other positions, but if they are doing a good job then good for them. One scout in our troop was an excellent Instructor for 3 years. He enjoyed it and had no interest in being in front of 50 scouts at meetings.

 

Scout On

(I don't understand the thread title.?)

[jtswestark]

As you can see, it's not a good practice. The SM needs to hear your perspective before he signs off on it.

 

[shortridge]

What is "an uneven advancement situation"? Are you concerned some boys may be advancing faster than others of the same rank? Note that a Scout is not competing against another Scout for advancement. It's not a race. Nor is it the troop's duty to make sure that every Scout starts from the same place or that one Scout's actions are "fair" to another Scout.

 

If Scout A is gung-ho and wants to do something and has put time and effort into it, and Scout B doesn't, that's not "uneven" - that's just the way it works.

 

Now, with this particular situation, if multiple Scouts have signed up as den chiefs in one den, and I were the SM, I'd put the kibosh on it. They should be spread out to different dens, if the pack agrees to it.

[CalicoPenn]

There is no national policy on who a Den Chief can't work with. If they're a Den Chief in mom's den, that's ok. If they're a Den Chief in dad's den, that's ok. If mom or dad is the CM, that's ok too.

 

No den needs more than one Den Chief. If you have multiple Den Chief's in one den, then you need to pull some out. Though the Pack assigns the Den Chief to a den, the post is still a POR for the Troop, and the Den Chief must be appointed by the SPL (in consultation with the SM). As such, the Troop still has some quality control for the position. You shouldn't remove someone from a den or pack just because you want to without consulting with the den leader and cubmaster (that's just bad PR and one of the biggest purposes of Den Chief is what I call "quiet" recruitment (meaning the Den Chief recruits just by being there setting an example, not by actively recruiting). But if the Pack is assigning more than one Den Chief to a den, that's a simple conversation with the Cubmaster to either find other dens for the lads, or to just choose one of them.

 

Yes, it's perfectly fine for a Scout to use the same POR for each rank requiring it (except for Bugler, which can't be used for Eagle). If you have a First Class scout that is elected SPL, and uses his time for Star, would you deny him the ability to use his time as SPL after he reaches the rank of Star for Life? I sure hope not.

 

Also, there is nothing that states that a person can't hold more than one POR at a time - that's especially common for such POR's as Den Chief, Bugler and Chaplain's Aide. I was a Den Chief from 12-18 - that POR served as my POR through all of my ranks. I also served as Scribe, Quartermaster, PL, and Instructor. Those "extras" likely helped in my BORs. Don't be afraid to challenge a lad to take on an additional POR if he's a Den Chief. The POR's should be looked at as more than just things needed to get rank.

[eaglemetals]

i am currently not the asst sm handling the den chief program. this is a role i am assuming in sep. i have scheduled to meet the previous leader next week to discuss the position. he has expressed some unhappiness with the way current leadership has handled certain decisions and has fowarded his concerns to our unit comm. i want to learn as much as i can about the program so that i may assist in the most effective and fairest way possible. so i thank all of you for your help. my statement on equality in advancement had nothing to do with rate of advancement, that's clearly up to the scout. It was in reference to adequately fulfilling the req, that are interpreted the same for all in the troop

[OldGreyEagle]

first off, welcome to the forums eaglemetals and on a willdy obtuse tangent, are you an ee cummings fan?

[ScoutNut]

>>"it creates an uneven advancement situation for the scouts who are calling upon an adult stranger with an unfamiliar den.">"my statement on equality in advancement had nothing to do with rate of advancement, that's clearly up to the scout. It was in reference to adequately fulfilling the req, that are interpreted the same for all in the troop"

[SMT224]

It really depends on the Scout.

 

We currently have a Scout who has been Den Chief for our feeder Pack for the past two years, and is doing an excellent job. He likes it and want to stay in that position for the foreseeable future, which is just fine. Our current Quartermaster is doing a great job as is our Librarian. They will both keep their positions through multiple ranks. However, our Scribe will not, as he rarely showed up, so did next to nothing. We have a new Chaplains Aid who seems very enthusiastic, so he may work out great. Many of our Scouts become Patrol Leaders and do well exploring leadership.

 

As you assume your new position asm, look at what the Scout is doing in his Position of Responsibility and how well he is doing it. As others have said, no more than one Den Chief per Den, and then monitor how well that one Scout does his job based on Den Leader feedback. Work closely with the SPL on decision making and how Scouts are doing in their PORs.

[CalicoPenn]

I think it's a great idea to have a mentor in the Troop for Den Chiefs to go to.

 

My suggestion, if you want to learn more about the position, is to get yourself a Den Chiefs Handbook and read it. While you're at it, read through the requirements for the Den Chief Service Award. It could be a big positive for you to be mentoring and tracking the Den Chiefs for this award. In many cases, Den Chiefs have done everything they need to do to earn this award, including time in service, but never get the recognition they're earned because no one is keeping track - neither the Den Chiefs, the Troop Leaders or the Pack Leaders. The time in service requirement is 1 year, so SMT's Scout who has been a Den Chief for the past 2 years has fulfilled the most difficult part - being a Den Chief for a year. Chances are pretty good that just by beaing a Den Chief, he's already met all the other requirements. Curious to know if anyone has ever talked to the Scout about it.

 

Also, don't hesitate to sit down with your Cubmasters and chat - see what their expectations are and let them know what yours is.

[ScoutNut]

Along with reading the Den Chief Handbook to learn about the position, I recommend taking the online Den Chief Training -

 

http://scouting.org/Training/Youth/DenChefTraining.aspx

 

Any Scouts who want to serve in the position of Den Chief should take this training. Most councils also hold an in-person Den Chief training that is good for prospective Den Chiefs to take.

 

It is a good idea for the Cub Scout den leader to take the Den Chief training also. That way everyone is on the same page as to what a Den Chief is, and how to use one.

[SMT224]

Great suggestion CalicoPenn!! Thanks! I hadn't heard of that award, but this Scout really deserves it, so I will move forward on it. Interesting that the red white & blue braid is the award. He's been wearing the blue and gold braid the Troop has had for years, even though he's been working with the Webelos. Learn something new everyday!! Thanks for your post!

[moosetracker]

Den Chief for years while working with adults Leaders other then your parents, fine.

Den Chief for a year for your parent as the Den Leader, fine.

 

Den Chief for years, maybe even your whole scouting career. I too would have a hard time with this, unless the scout was doing this job plus other positions in the troop (as Calico pointed out.)..

 

Why?.. Like doing all your merit badges with your mom & dad being your MBC, you are not having adult association other then within your own family unit. You are not learning to spread your wings and challenged to try new things.

 

Parents may get you to do the Den chief job, but you aren't learning to work with others. Parents may be using it to allow "little johnny" to cheat and get to Eagle rank without doing anything..

 

Scout needs to learn what is expected of him in a POR that is not just satisfying mommy's idea of what he is capable of doing.

 

Now if you have 2 or more scouts who are all working den chief within their own mothers den, I may be acceptable of them staying Den Chiefs if they do a den swap, and go and work in the den of the other scouts' mommy rather then their own.