When did it become standard to clutch the flag to your chest?

[prairie]

Spin off of the drill thread:

 

I grew up watching flag teams tuck the flag kinda under thier left arm and supported by the left forearm.. Now all I see is the flag clutched to the chest with both arms, makes me think of someone carrying a hurt pet.

[CalicoPenn]

Well I imagine it came from the custom of military flag bearers that bring a flag that has been draped on a soldier's coffin then ceremonially folded over to a widow(er). In doing so, they hold the flag to their chest with their arms crossed over the flag (thus clutching the flag to their chest).

 

I suppose it's done for the greater symbolism of holding the flag over one's heart rather than carrying it like a football.

 

 

[prairie]

I understand the symbolisum when at a funeral, however at Scout camp it comes off as the Flag thats wounded.

[Engineer61]

The Marine Color Guard I watched a few weeks ago at a performance of the Phoenix Symphony carried the flags on center, not under the arm. That matches ever other color guard I ever recall seeing.

 

I'd consider that the standard to be followed.

 

I've seen the Scouts do that whole left are thing as well...irritates me to no end when the colors touch the floor.

 

Of course, to do the centered flag, the Scout should probably have the yokes.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Most of the time, Color guards have a carrying belt/harness that they wear, and the flag is essentially carried at the chest.

 

However I have seen 1 USMC JROTC color guard carry the colors on the side when the building they were posting the colors in would not allow it to be carried normally.

[skeptic]

Is the question about a folded flag, or one on a staff? Makes a difference. Like most things related to the flag, there are traditions, general instructions, and absolutes. This appears to be a tradition to me.

[frankpalazzi]

It's not a standard, it's more of a tradition with some groups. The US Flag code doesn't specify how a flag should be carried, so it's up to the individual, as long as it's done respectfully.

[wjturner]

As someone who has served on (and commanded) military color guards, we were always taught to carry a folded flag with crossed arms against the chest. The guard is, after all, there to *guard* the colors. The color bearer, in particular, has the responsibility to keep it safe. Others are there to protect him.

 

Eagle92 is correct about carrying the colors on a staff, but this sounds like a folded flag.

[Stosh]

??? Color guard to protect the flag? Sure, but the boys are going to have to arm themselves to do it properly. I'm thinking M-16's might be a bit over-kill, but maybe a short sword, sheathed of course, or maybe a belt axe that could be doubled as a battle axe.

 

If one is worried about traditions copied from the military, in 1860, the flag didn't necessarily go on the right, it just got out into the field where people could see it. It did not stand at the right of anything and on the march was in the middle of the company.

 

Traditions change from day to day...

 

BSA falls under the US Flag Code for civilians. It says nothing about how it should be carried while folded. If one wants to imitate the military on how they carry the flag and how they fold it, fine, but don't prescribe it for civilian use because the Code does not address it.

 

As far as answering the threads question: It never became standard, it didn't! It's just that way because someone thought it might be cool to do it that way.

 

Stosh

[wjturner]

Calm down, jblake. Nobody I know is suggesting arming BS color guards. Heck, a lot of the time military color guards aren't armed. If you want to go back to 1860, there was only one flag carried in a regiment (a company did not have any colors), so there was no "to the right". It was, and is, in the middle, both to mark a location and to protect it. I invite you to watch a military unit conduct a real formation, not just a parade.

 

If you are truly worried about borrowing things from the military, well, I hope you don't dig too deeply into the history of scouting. ;-)

 

 

[Woapalanne]

Actually, jblake is correct. As a (former) Color Guard commander, I can assure you that a Color Guard is always armed. Always. Purpose is to protect - guard - the flag.

 

Scouts do not have Color Guards. They have flag details, or flag teams. The difference being that they are not armed, therefore not "guarding" the flag. They are detailed to perform the formal flag function (whether raising, lowering, presenting, etc.) as required.

 

As a flag detail, rather than a color guard, they have a greater leeway in the way they perform the function. The key must be respect for the flag, while following the Flag Code.(This message has been edited by Woapalanne)

[wjturner]

Interesting. As I said, I've served on military color guards that were not armed. Technically, I guess you would call them flag details, but that's not what they *were* called. Oh, well. This is all a digression anyway. The question was about when people started holding the flag that way, and my comment that started this whole digression (for which I am *very* sorry) was that it is not a new thing and has a very practical reason in actually protecting the flag. If you want to argue semantics, fine, but that was not my point.(This message has been edited by wjturner)

[Stosh]

wjturner,

 

I used the color guard semantics to point out that there is a difference between color guard and flag details. Flag details are unarmed military or civilian in nature in that there is no armed guard accompanying the flag. However, civilian tradition uses the term color guard for all flag details whether they are armed or not. VFW and American Legion units sometimes carry weapons, but technically all it's members have been mustered out and are now civilians.

 

The issue that always complicates discussions concerning the Flag is civilians are expected (not required) to follow the US Flag Code when handling the flag. It is intended by Congress to describe how the Flag should properly be treated so as to be done respectfully and with dignity. With that being said, if someone wishes to respectfully carry the flag folded against their chest with arms crossed, that's fine, but the Code does not prescribe how it should be carried. It also does not prescribe how it should be folded either, only displayed and handled. So over the years certain traditions have been adopted, but the Flag Code does not address them. If someone has a tradition that does not counter the Flag Code, great, everyone knows that an attempt is being made to show respect for the Flag. However, just because it is tradition does not make it either right or wrong, just "traditional". It is only right or wrong when compared to items actually within the Flag Code.

 

As a point of trivia digression, in 1860, the military use either one or two flags per regiment of 10 companies. It could be the US Flag and/or the regimental flag (also known as a battle flag to the Confederates), both had the unit designation painted directly on the flags. This of course runs counter to today's Flag Code in that nothing should be written on the flag. It didn't make any difference with one flag if it was the US Flag or the regimental/battle flag. However in order to distinguish between Federal and Confederate, the US Flag was used more often than just the regimental flag, although there was nothing wrong with just the regimental/battle flag.

 

There was a color company of 100 men of with which the color guard moved. The color guard was located on the left end of the color company and whereas the company had two ranks of men, the color guard had three. When the flags went forward on "Forward, March" towards the enemy, ranks 2 and 3 filled the spacing on the line with ranks 1 and 2 of the company (The front rank being the first rank). When the order to halt was given the colors came back to the first rank and the two other ranks went back a rank as well. When the order was given to fire the color guard backed up even further behind the line so as not to harm the flag with the firing of the rifles/muskets. If the color guard had one flag, there were two armed men one on each side of the flag bearer to protect it because the flag bearer was unarmed (maybe had a handgun for personal protection). There would be three men in each rank for a total of 9 men. If two flags were used, then the total would be 12 men (4 in each rank to compensate for the additional flag).

 

The color company was always right of center. With 10 companies that would make them 5th company counting from the right. If there were 5 companies, the color company would be 2nd company counting from the right. 3rd company would have been directly in the middle, but the color company was always right of center. If there were less than 4 companies they would not carry flags because the

1st company was never color company. (There will be a test at the end of this post!)

 

All in all, the flag, up until the US Flag Code, was for military and governmental purposes ONLY! Civilians were not allowed to have flags. They were used to mark military positions on the battlefield and mark governmental/municipal buildings, like post offices and schools. When soldiers marched off to war, they were not hailed with small flags as they are today, but traditionally white hankies were waved.

 

However with the change of military tactics, i.e. trench warfare, it was detrimental for the enemy to know what units they faced and so flags were removed from battle areas and the visibility of flags was reduced to parades and governmental buildings. With the increase in national pride, pressure was put on Congress to provide a way for civilians to be able to display the flag and so Congress adopted the US Flag code following WW I.

 

Because Boy Scouts were a civilian organization, they were not allowed to use US Flags in parades prior to the US Flag Code but because they were chartered by Congress, I think some slack was given to them as a group. I am not an expert on how that all worked out from 1910-1923.

 

Over the years the US Flag Code has undergone a number of changes so that even what was prescribed in the early years is no longer relevant today, i.e. men left their hats on and did not place their right hand over their heart. They only stood at attention. Women and children placed their hands over their hearts.

 

I guess one might say that even the US Flag Code is not a tradition because of all these changes over the years.

 

Just remember, what the military does and what civilians do, can and often times are not the same when it comes to flag "traditions". We should not strive to emulate the military, but follow closely the US Flag Code for Civilians in it's directives. If an issues is not directly commented on, what ever is done is done with respect and dignity. Unfortunately, even that is no longer followed by many people today.

 

As captain of the color company at last weekend's national reenactment remembering 1st Bull Run/Manassas's 150th Anniversary, I got an ear full of how to do it from those that have done extensive research on the subject.

 

Stosh

 

[Scoutfish]

No, the boys won't be carrying M-16's. That would be against G2SS.

 

They will be carrying bb guns or .22 rifles - but only if the color guard is carrying trhe flag while at a council range under the direction and supervision of a NRA certified range officer.

 

 

 

As for the original post,. I'd say it isn't so much "tradition" as it is a case of somebody seeing somebody else doinmg it, and mimicing it thinking it is correct.

 

Again, not so much "tradituon" in the way we think of it.

 

 

[wjturner]

Thanks, Stosh, for the history lesson. I heard from some of my friends about the reenactment. It sounds like you know your stuff better than most of the reenactors I've seen. You certainly gave more detail than I have in my previous posts, but I think some of your remarks are better aimed at others. (E.g., I was not the one claiming a company had a flag. I said regiment.) I stand corrected about them being in the center in 1860, but then again, that remark was in response to someone saying it was on the right, and as you point out, there was only one flag, and it was almost in the center of the regiment, as opposed to on the right.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you about civilians not needing to emulate the military, but then that wasn't my point, either. By the way, have you ever commanded a real military color guard, or are you just a civilian emulating the military? :-)