Drill; Pro and Con

[skeptic]

A comment about not marching and drilling was made. Am not sure that there is any harm in basic drilling at times. It is very helpful in many ways. Teaching the scouts to listen to a leader, and to coordinate their movements. Learning to do a sharp set of maneuvers for flag ceremonies. Discipline perhaps. And it can be fun as well. There is something special about a well groomed group marching in good cadence and form. It engenders pride in the marchers too, or at least it did for us when we did it in the 50's.

 

Frankly, I cringe often when I see scouts doing flag ceremonies in public. We might be better served, image wise, if we did a well executed and sharp ceremony when the mayor's office asks us to do one, or a fraternal organization, or even at our own functions where too often the flag presentation is almost embarrassing. JMHO of course.

[momof2cubs]

I will preface this by saying that I am fairly liberal (read: hippie like) in my thinking and thus have some unfair bias towards anything resembling a pseudo, somewhat, looks-like para-military behavior and activities. I have squashed my bias in regards to BSA because I think it is a great organization and my sons enjoy it, so I look past the uniforms.

 

So now that I have been honest about my bias, it is my personal opinion that NO, I would NOT like to see any kind of marching or drilling in scouting. I too have cringed while watching some flag ceremonies and yes, I agree that in a lot of cases they could use some polish, but in no way would I agree to have my sons participate in any kind of marching or drilling activity.

 

And that is just MY OWN (albeit biased) opinion; which I assume is what you are looking for. (not MY opinion per se, but the opinions of the people on this boards)

[Alabama Scouter]

I agree with two cub, but for different reasoning.

BSA is not Jr. ROTC, not the Army Reserve, not a paramilitary force.

 

Yes, we need to teach how to do a proper flag ceremony, flag retirement, and flag etiquette, but no, we don't need to be teaching marching drills.

[SeattlePioneer]

Few Cub Scouts do well with flag ceremonies involving marching, in my experience.

 

 

I have two alternate methods I encourage:

 

 

1: Scouts open a flag, as large as is suitable. Each Scout and adult in uniform takes a hold on the flag with their left hand, stretching it taught while it's parallel to the ground.

 

Scouts salute the flag with their right hand and lead the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

 

2: Scouts form a ring around a flag on a staff, each holding the flag with their left hand while saluting with their right hand.

 

Say the pledge.

[sailingpj]

Yes, when done right drill can be fun. We do it in Sea Scouts all the time. We even compete in it at some regattas. I like having drill as part of Sea Scout regattas because it is an event that any crew can win. Even a crew of complete newbies can do well in drill if they practice a little before the regatta.

 

You don't need any special equipment, you can learn it from a book, and it really isn't that hard.

 

"Frankly, I cringe often when I see scouts doing flag ceremonies in public."

 

I second that^^

[lrsap]

During my den's Bear year, I taught them the concept of "Dress right". It was a great way to get them in line and paying attention. It worked really well during awards presentations at Pack Meetings.

 

The most important thing to remember is if the boys are not having fun, you're doing it wrong. Teach them the moves then let the denner lead, or give each boy a chance to call the group. And keep a smile on your face. If you start to channel your inner drill instructor, you're REALLY doing it wrong.

 

[shortridge]

Can anyone point to any documentation that says marching and drill are banned, restricted or even frowned upon? In fact, the BSA specifically recognizes drill teams in the Insigina Guide:

 

Boy Scouts or Venturers who are members of bands, drill teams, or drum and bugle corps affiliated with a unit or a local council must wear the official uniform for their registration status.

The wearing of special helmets, scarves, gloves, unofficial leggings, and the carrying of ceremonial guns or swords by members of such organizations using the uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America is in violation of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

So drill and marching can take place, but the teams aren't to get all gussied up and wear guns and swords and stuff. Seems simple enough.

 

During my years on camp staff, we prided ourselves on having a sharp-looking flag ceremony. Staffers got into (friendly) arguments about who was serving on the color guard that night because of the honor of it. We practiced marching, turning, folding, saluting, etc. It wasn't perfect, but we tried to make them memorable for the Scouts.

 

In fact, the most embarassing flag ceremony I've ever seen was the one done by a team of U.S. Air Force personnel at the annual council jamboree one year (held at a USAF base). They strolled out of formation, slouched while standing at the flagpole, had no idea how to connect the flag to the halyard and did not salute while the flag was being run up. Our summer camp ceremonies were world-class in comparison.

[Kudu]

Green Bar Bill wrote:

 

"A certain amount of drill is necessary for getting the Troop and Patrols into position for various activities and for moving the Troop with a semblance of order and smartness.

 

"For this Scouting does not resort to military drill, but has developed its own technique, easily learned and considered by the boys as a game rather than a drill."

 

See Silent Scout Signals:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/drill.htm

[Scoutfish]

I can't say that I'd ever be embarrassed by my boys while doing a flag ceremony.

 

Are the perfect and does everything go like precision clockwork?

 

Nope! Not hardly. But I am never embarrassed by them.

 

They are boys doing something because they want to. The are making an effort to do it right. They are trying and the sentiment is there.

 

I have seen them carry the flag on the wrong side of the procession - but it doesn't men they don't care about that flag.

 

I have seen them march with the pack flag ahead of the US flag because one boy gets a out of pace with the rest of the group - but not because he didn't care or thought he was more important.

 

I have watched them crowd up or get spaced too far apart, and almost hung the flag upside down - but they corrected it before most observers noticed.

 

But I also know they are boys doing something because they wanted to and their unpolished inconsistancies are just a sign of their age and the fact they are not a paid daily military unit whose job is to do this on a daily basis.

 

I guess as a CM, I know that pretty much everythinbg the boys do at some point is based ontheir watching and learning of us and that our mentoring is the guidance they use.

 

So, I nhave never been embarassed by the way the boys perform at a flag ceremony.

 

I'm, thiunking the day I am embarrassed by a group of youth trying to do something is the day I need to step down and remove myself from this group.

[Scoutfish]

I want to add:

 

If the boys want to do the extra practice and get better or be the best they can at flag ceremonies and want to do the drills...I see nothiung wrong with that at all.

 

But just don't start drilling them because you are embarrassed by what they do.

 

Don't drill them because they do not met your expectations .

 

Do not let this be your focus in the program.

 

[The Blancmange]

I opened this thread expecting to read another health and safety thread about power tools.

[CalicoPenn]

Well I think it's perfectly fine to march in a parade carrying a hand drill, but a power drill, even if not plugged in, might not be kosher.

 

In all seriousness, I wouldn't get too upset over how good Cub Scouts, or young Boy Scouts, are at doing a flag ceremony in public. Frankly, I doubt that most people in the crowd is even going to notice if something is wrong, like the pack flag getting ahead of the US flag, or the US flag being walked up on the wrong side. Most veterans I know that will notice won't say anything because they're just thrilled to see those Scouts in uniform doing this. If any were to come up to me afterwards complaining, I'd simply ask them if they remember what s/he was like at 10 years old then walk away and find someone more pleasant to talk to.

 

When I was a Cub Scout, we did a drill team for the 4th of July parade. 16 of us practiced for 6 weeks, 2 times per week while the rest of the 80 kids in the pack just got to show up on the day of the parade and walk behind us. I hated it, but my father was the CC so I had no choice. Fun? It was in no way fun. It was work, and it was useless, senseless work. None of us liked it but dad says you will do it and you did it. If you are going to do it, make sure the Scouts are wanting to do it - if they don't, let it go.

[ghermanno]

I fondly remember back to when I was a LAPD Explorer. We had a precision drill team. Let me tell you that ALL Explorers in the post were familiar with basic drill manuvers but the Drill Team was the one that performed in parades and such. It was GREAT.

 

As far as a normal Troop, I see no problem with basic Drill (Ranks, dress, facing movements, even basic marching). The trick is to teach the SPL to teach the boys and not make it the whole of the meeting.

 

I do see a problem if the PLC does NOT want it. Here again, it is boy led.

 

I would NOT try to train a Pack in formation movement. Let them learn how to group first. Most adults smile and enjoy the young boys marching (mistakes, picking nose,...) but have a different oppinion when it involes the older boys.

 

My $0.02 for what it is worth.

 

Rick

[bnelon44]

""For this Scouting does not resort to military drill, but has developed its own technique, easily learned and considered by the boys as a game rather than a drill."

 

See Silent Scout Signals:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/drill.htm

"

 

The silent Scout signals were in a recent previous handbook, now removed I think.

 

I would agree with Hillcourt's statement to some extent as long as it is remembered that it is not an adult giving the signals.

 

If you want them to look better at flag ceremonies, ask them if they want to look better, then suggest to the PLC they incorporate flag ceremonies into the troop meeting. Practice makes for better performance.

 

We had a couple of 1st year Scouts help out at a District event flag ceremony this past month. They did fine because they were use to doing flag ceremonies every week. But they weren't a drill team. And I wouldn't expect to see that with Scouts. JROTC, yes, Scouts no.

 

When I see a troop marching in perfect order and in perfect uniform, I am almost always correct that it is an adult run troop.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[skeptic]

Thanks to those that responded, reminding me that "embarrassed" is the wrong word. It is also correct that seldom does anyone note the errors if they occur, at least not to my face, or those of the scouts. But, if we are asked, I always point out to the boy in charge that they need to be serious, and perhaps practice some, reminding them that people will be watching. A few times they have opted out, which is fine; and we had a small group years back that chose to learn serious drill maneuvers. They were in demand for a couple of years, until the leader aged out and it fell apart.

 

My point for doing it for special occasions is just that; it is a special occasion. And doing it right should probably be part of accepting the request. However, part of it depends on age. We should never really expect cubs to do as well as older scouts. But they all should hopefully be encouraged to "do their best".

 

Now, just doing it for fun, while maybe helping them learn to follow instructions and a leader, definitely should be their choice. And I have always been surprised at how they seem to occasionally enjoy an O'Grady drill, if they have chosen to learn basic stuff.

 

As said; if they want to learn it better, then help them. Otherwise, simply teach them to be respectful and stand up straight, if possible.