CC veto

[moosetracker]

On the surface of what the OP wrote I don't see much wrong with the vote, it is not something a CC should veto..

 

Personally, I too may have chosen a fundraising. With our committee it is just a yearly budget and then figuring what is needed to raise the funds for the budget. One year may by higher then the next year, depending on what we see as the future expenses of the coming year, or the unexpected expenses of last year that depleted the kitty.. Then everyone gets told what the troop is doing for fundraising and asked to sell X amount or be involved x hours. If they dont they need to pay X fee (or a portion of, if they did a portion of the fundraising)..

 

But each troop is different, some just charge the fee to not have the headache of fundraisers that their members want no part of, or that they have no one willing to coordinate and organize.

 

Sure, in 5yrScouter troop this vote would be ludicrous..But, that is coloring the small amount of information we have with a personal bias. 5yr that is a ridiculous slush fund!!!!

 

But, the OPs story could just as easily be that of a troop low on funds, with members who have a history of not showing up to fundraisers, and expecting a free ride. Maybe they just had all their equipment wiped out by a tornado, fire or flood Or it has just gotten very seedy because year after year they have not had the funds to replenish it..

 

Really the background story could be anything, so again for what little I have to go on, I will say that on the surface, it is not something for a CC to have veto power over. $25 is reasonable (Provided this is not tacked onto the $100 per year fee they are already charging).. It is about the price of a dinner for two at a typical restaurant, and it is to purchase something that should last many years. As others have stated before, all other youth organizations have fees or expect members to work the fundraisers.. Little league, Band etc..

 

Also as stated earlier this committee was not voting for to do something against BSA policy, or triggering a safety issue that would force some sort of veto. The budget and how to raise the capital for it is a typical, day to day decision that committees take a vote on all over the country..

 

[SeattlePioneer]

I don't think the CEO of a corporation and the CC of a Scout unit have much in common.

 

 

The CEO has extensive real powers to hire, fire and give orders.

 

The CC main job is to find a way to manage the Scout unit with the cooperation of parents and volunteers.

 

 

Deciding that an additional fee would cause Scout families to drop out of the program seems like a good reason for reconsidering a vote.

 

Before I'd lose several Scouts, I'd look at patching tents and extending their useful life, or finding another alternative.

[ScoutNut]

>>"What it was is the comm voted on a 25.00 per year gear fee to help pay for tents and such. Later that week the CC advised me he is not happy with the vote and will not honor it. He stated that due to the economy, some families can not afford it. We offered to have a fund raiser so the boys can earn this but still, no Luck."

[moosetracker]

Yes but the committee "should" be an assembly of the parents concerned with the way the troop is run. If you are a parent and don't like the decisions coming out of the committee, then you become a concerned parent on the committee..

 

Therefore a group of the parents who make up the committee decided this was a fair decision, knowing they too would have to pay the fee. During the committee meeting if a fear of people leaving was an issue, this should have been brought up and discussed before the vote.

 

It is 5yearScouter who has people walking, and rightly so. Why fundraise, then hoard it in a bank, and ask the parents to pay for everything anyway.

 

This is one person who is making an assumption, that is not prooved one way or the other and it is against the wishes of the parents of the troop who are actively involved with the troop.

 

If the troop is willing to offer fundraising to off set the fee, then that would solve those who have financial stress..

 

Money does have to come from somewhere to run a troop. Fundraising or Fee, take your pick.. A Scouting troop who removes the "outing" from Scouting due to the fact they don't have the equipment to go out, will loose families just as fast or faster...

[operatingeng]

WOW, did not mean to stir up a hornets nest. Our troop has one fund raiser a year, Popcorn which we get.33 percent of each boys 200.00 sale so for ROI the troop gets 66.00 dollars per boy x 70 = 4620.00. Our budget on average consists of charter renewal, patches, two parents nights, NYLT for 2, and other common troop cost.

 

The gear we have is old and as everyone knows, breaks on a regular basis. The added 25.00 was stated to only pay for gear and not "other" troop cost. This money would be for tents, trailer repair, stoves, etc. The idea of REPAIR and finding someone to due this would be a full time job. Is is worth repairing a 5 year old tent that has over 125 days of camping?

 

I thank everyone for there input and it seems most think the way I do. The CC can not override a veto, only the COR. With this info, I have a better plan on how to move forward and deal with this.

 

Thanks

BSA Volunteers

 

[moosetracker]

operatingeng - don't worry, this isn't a hornets nets, it a friendly debate over a vertual campfire.

 

If you look at other post, you will see this is gentle.. Many of us have been hanging around the board for a while, and we enjoy a friendly tussle of ideas..

[ScoutNut]

If the equipment is falling apart, and is in need of repair/replacement, then while I can fully understand why the CC is against an additional out-of-pocket fee, I am still confused as to why he is against an extra fundraiser to pay for this instead.

 

Most of the Troops in my area generally hold 2 fundraisers per year. One, popcorn, is used almost exclusively for the Scouts only, with profit going into individual Scout accounts. This is used by the Scouts to pay for Troop dues, camping fees, event fees, etc. The second fundraiser is usually a dinner, or breakfast type of thing. Many Troops run a Pancake Breakfast in the Spring. This fundraiser goes for Troop expenses such as equipment, awards, etc. For a big budget item (like a unit trailer) a separate (third) fundraiser is usually held.

 

Repair vs replace would depend on what kind of shape a tent is in. A good quality tent will hold up way past 125 days of camping. Tent poles are easily replaced. Patching can also be done at home fairly easily. You can get spray on waterproofing to re-waterproof a fly. Replacing zippers, or floors, would have to be someone professional. Finding one should certainly not be a full time job. Contact any high end sporting goods store (REI is a good one) and ask them.

[TAHAWK]

So the COR appoints the Committee and the CC.

 

If the CC has a veto on all Committee actions, don't you have a one-person Committee when it comes to decisions? (Animal Farm: "some are more equal than others.")

 

In a point that Blanchard made but revised 21st Century WB "lost in translation," authoritarian leadership does not work well in volunteer organizations because people can "vote with their feet." Then you have a one-person Committee to do the work of the Committee. Hello! Hello! Anyone else here?

 

In southern California and similar climates, nylon tents will not last 125 days due to UV "rot." (We're not in Seattle anymore, Toto.") It's often a matter of judgment whether to repair or replace. Here in Ohio, we bought from a store that repaired zippers and rips for free so long as the tent was sound. They are not in business anymore.

 

I have personal experience that too much money can be a bigger problem than just enough to get by - more to argue about.

 

I recall advice to have a "small reserve only" for the troop, but i cannot recall the source(s). Pre-2000 training?

[hadulzo]

I will go with the "where is it written" about troop committees voting.

 

I side with the committe chair on this. A tax on each scout for gear seems so government like. Just have a pancake breakfast and raise some money for troop equipment.

 

Committee members are not representatives of anything. they should have specific jobs ie training, membership, etc. Since when is scouting a democracy?

 

[Oak Tree]

I'm thinking the CC is not "right" on this. He may or may not have the authority - the COR could delegate to him - but there is no reason to bring something up for discussion at the committee, get their opinion, and then ignore it. Is he just trying to make people mad?

 

The topic itself is of little note - I think it could easily go either way. More to the point is the way the CC is running the committee.

[operatingeng]

We did advise the CC that we could have a Fund raiser for the boys to raise the 25.00 instead of just paying the fee. It was then brought up that we should not charge the boys the 25.00 and just have a fund raiser. What about the boys who do not help? If the same 30 boys due all the work but everyone uses the equipment is that fair? That is why we would charge each boy the 25 and if they wanted to work it off they had the option. This would help the family's who could not afford to take the money out of there pockets.

 

It seems that the majority is against the CC veto. But is there any such paper work stating in BSA that he does not have this Power?

I am looking for something in writing so we can all be on the same page.

 

[Oak Tree]

You're not going to find anything in writing, because it's up to the chartered organization how exactly to run the committee. Your COR should be able to give you their take on the rules.

 

You can find some "official" descriptions of the roles, but they are more guidelines than anything.

 

The committee chair does have the role of "interpreting national and local policies to the troop" - so if the CO has a policy on fund-raising, the CC should know about it.

 

The process described in the troop committee guidebook is to have an annual plan and budget and include troop money-earning projects. The guidebook prefers money-raising projects over dues, and says that project selection should begin with the PLC and Scoutmaster, who will bring their ideas to the committee.

 

The Troop Committee Guidebook does say that the Scoutmaster is not actually a member of the troop committee and has no vote. This implies that everyone who is actually on the committee does have a vote.

 

There is nothing to indicate that a CC can veto a committee decision. Why would a CC think that they could? You could ask this, but again, it's really going to be up to the CO as to how they want the committee to run. We're a bunch of cooperating volunteers.

[SeattlePioneer]

Boy Scouts are supposed to be "thrifty," which means Scouts raising the money for membership, gear and activities. That's the ideal, anyway.

 

Billing the parents for money isn't SUPPOSED to be the program.

[moosetracker]

SP - What says you can not bill the parent?.. Many, Many, Many, Many troops function this way. They do a budget where it is divide between the scouts, each parent is told the fee is x amount.. You can raise it selling x amount of popcorn but if you don't raise that much the difference is billed to them.. Many parents choose to opt out and pay the full amount not to have them or their child deal with fundraising..

 

I was in 1 pack & 3 troops, all from different CO's this was the practice in all 4 units. And it was a policy in place before we signed on. Some had 100% of popcorn raising to the troop, some had it that they met the stated amount, then the rest went to the scout fund. Our last one had 100% until the met the mark, then 75% went to the scout & 25% still went to the troop.

 

What I have never heard of is not including the equipment replacement into the troops yearly budget..

 

[ScoutNut]

NO - There is nothing in writing by the BSA that states a CC can not override a committee vote.

 

>>"If the same 30 boys due all the work but everyone uses the equipment is that fair?"