AHG Leaders welcome at BSA training courses?

[BDPT00]

AHG's doors are open to all girls, but they need to understand that the organization is Christian, and they won't disguise that fact.

BDPT00

[shortridge]

Jeffrey - All those religious COs you cite accept and understand the principles of inclusion that Scouting is based upon. Not necessarily so for AHG. While there may be some overlap, AHG does NOT "believe in what the BSA stands for and represents." Being Reverent in Scouting and Reverent in AHG mean entirely different things. In sum, one is focused on Christianity; the other is focused on Scouting.

 

BDPT - I know the official line is that the AHG Statement of Faith applies only to adults - but that's contradicted by AHG itself. The group describes itself as a "Judeo-Christian focused organization" aimed at "Christian parents" whose daughters can "put 'legs on their faith' thus becoming an outward sign of Christ's love in their community." I thus have a hard time understanding how a Jewish, Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist girl can join and be accepted, without being preached at. Can you explain how that works?

 

All this is still academic for most of the country, however. AHG simply is not a force or a factor outside of the 300 communities where it has a foothold - a tiny number when you compare it to any other youth-serving organization. To put it into perspective: It has been just over 15 years since AHG started, and it has 13,000 members. Ten years after BSA was founded, in a much more rural, far less connected time, there were more than 500,000 members.

 

If your council wants to allow AHG members to sign up for its training, more power to everyone involved. But in fairness, you should also be spreading the word to the other organizations that BSA has MOUs with.

[moosetracker]

Hmmm.. We can't get those from our district who are required to be trained to get to the trainings.. Really will we have a mob of non-scouters if we advertise our trainings are open? I don't think so..

 

But, really I don't think if some AHG Leader emailed me and said, "I saw you were holding IOLS, next week.. I am not registered with the BSA, but I could really use some skills with camping, would you mind if I signed up".. And I answered, "No problem. The more the merrier!" That requires me to take a front page ad out in the paper stating the xxxxx district is hosting an IOLS training open to anyone who wants to go only $8 per person..

 

Sort of like if my neighbors comes over and asks to borrow a movie I own, and I let them borrow it, I am in no way required to put a sign up in my front yard stating "Video Rentals Here!"..

 

If someone asks, and it will not cost the District or Council to be neighborly, be neighborly..

(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[shortridge]

moose - That certainly is good logic. My comment was more directed at the AHG folks who think they're entitled to use BSA resources, or that they're somehow special in Irving's eyes because some PR guy drafted an MOU. If that's the case, every group that has signed an MOU should also be given special consideration, from ham radio enthusiasts to the Islamic Society.

 

I wish I could figure out where this misinformation started.

[BDPT00]

At this point, for me, the misinformation stated is, "My comment was more directed at the AHG folks who think they're entitled to use BSA resources."

Where did that statement come from?

BDPT00

[shortridge]

That was the whole thrust of this thread, BDPT. Someone was seeking support for a plan to allow, encourage or even *require* BSA to accept AHG leaders into its training courses. There was also another comment in another past thread where someone was complaining and moaning that the local BSA council wasn't handing out AHG pamphlets.

 

There is very much a sense of entitlement at work here. I don't know if it's because honest people with AHG simply misinterpreted (or didn't read) the MOU, or because someone at National gave AHG a wink and a nod and left them with the impression that both groups are on the same side, fighting the same fight.

 

Again, if AHG wants to use Scouting resources or camps or programs, it can pay the fees, same as anybody else. If discounts are offered because of the MOU, those same discounts should be offered to the Islamic Society of North America and the American Radio Relay League, among other groups.

 

BSA is under no obligation to prop up an organization that can't succeed on its own.

[WoundedFox]

shortridge, you misquoted me slightly, so please let me explain. I was not asking that councils be required to register AHG leaders in courses. I was asking whether there was any direction from national regarding registration for courses. As with most large organizations, if something is a good idea, it is often required and if something has a possibility of misuse, it gets banned. (See the Paddlecraft Safety Course, and homebuilt alcohol stoves, for instances of this.)

 

Some people here clearly don't like it, but there are *many* BSA units that incorporate a specific faith into their programs. It is allowed, and even encouraged by national policy, and it has lots of advantages. For instance, I find that the character building lessons "stick" much better when they are taught in the context of specific faith lessons that reinforce (and are reinforced by) the lessons that the scouts are learning at home and at church. We can also sing the songs that we choose and pray in the manner we prefer without worrying about offending anyone. We have polled our member families, and *most* of our youth would not be involved in scouting if it were not for a program like ours.

 

Our BSA Troop and Pack have benefited directly from our CO's AHG troop. We all meet on the same night, and because AHG troops are relatively rare those families that seek out the AHG troop often bring the rest of the family along for our BSA programs. This is a good fit for us, because all of our units incorporate Protestant Christian teaching into their programs, and our families want this kind of program for all of their children.

 

So back to my original question, I have found out a few things that might interest others.

1) Our council welcomes all parents of BSA youth to most training. This covers most of our leaders who might want to take IOLS, for instance. (Or Trainer's EDGE, another great course.)

2) The AHG National office will help you connect with your local BSA Council, if you are not sure how to go about it.

3) The level of cooperation happening seems to vary widely based on location. As others here have pointed out, AHG is big in certain areas, and non-existent in others.

 

My perspective is that AHG has a lot to learn from the BSA. For example, if you think that the BSA paperwork/rechartering process is bad, you have never seen the AHG equivalent. And Tour Permits/Plans? AHG goes way overboard by requiring National office "high adventure" approval for all canoe trips, for example.

 

I also feel that the BSA has a lot to gain from the exchange. Many AHG chartering organizations don't sponsor BSA units right now, but once they understand that faith specific units are welcome in the BSA, I believe more will. I find faith specific units (of all faiths) to be a positive aspect of the religious diversity within the BSA.

 

Finally, anyone who thinks that Wood Badge training is so specific to the BSA that it can't be easily transferred to other areas of your life took a very different course than the one I just attended. Sure, we could cross register AHG leaders on our committee, or in our crew, just to get them "in", but if they were registered in the course as AHG leaders, they could work their tickets within their AHG Troop.

 

BTW, I have just heard that AHG is working on an advanced training course modeled after Wood Badge. That's a great option for leaders in or near Ohio (AHG National & center of population).

[moosetracker]

Wounded Fox, that is why I said, in my first post maybe Woodbadge needs some certification (athough even there, why?).

 

You did answer it for me, it stems from working your ticket, that makes sense. Also there is the piece that you need to be fully trained in your Leadership position. What would that be for an AHG??

 

Otherwise you are right, Woodbadge is even promoted as being something that will help not only in your scouting world, but your career, and personal life..

 

I'm glad the parent angle helped you out.

 

If you registered them in the troop, it might limit their ticket somewhat, but it would not be hard for them to do something that benefited both the troop & the AHG, but wrote it up more toward the benefit of the troop.. My son did part of his ticket on getting different troops in the area together for an event. That could be part of the ticket, or making something that both groups could use..

 

But, that might be seen as a little underhanded unless they do have kids in both groups, so truely feel great about working something that benefits both organizations, rather then just going through the motions for the troop, to get something signed off..

[ScoutNut]

>>"Many AHG chartering organizations don't sponsor BSA units right now, but once they understand that faith specific units are welcome in the BSA, I believe more will."

[kcshrader]

OK, let's turn the question on it's head.

 

I'm about to call our BSA District Office and ask for help in finding a local BSA Troop that is interested in partnering with my AHG Troop.

 

What can I offer in the way of benefits to the BSA Troop?

 

So far, I've heard lots of folks say that they'd like to see an increase in BSA membership. I can try, but the families in my Troop already know where to find the Boy Scouts if they're interested in that. I doubt I'm going to be able to draw boys into Boy Scouts, at least not in large numbers.

 

I think I can offer to share some of the adult-volunteer load. If we can make some event a joint event, it makes sense we'd be doing half the work.

 

What else? I'm honestly open to ideas for making this partnership one of mutual benefit.

[ScoutNut]

>>"I'm about to call our BSA District Office and ask for help in finding a local BSA Troop that is interested in partnering with my AHG Troop.">"the families in my Troop already know where to find the Boy Scouts if they're interested in that. I doubt I'm going to be able to draw boys into Boy Scouts, at least not in large numbers."

[kcshrader]

>>"I'm about to call our BSA District Office and ask for help in finding a local BSA Troop that is interested in partnering with my AHG Troop.">Partnering how? Why? >"the families in my Troop already know where to find the Boy Scouts if they're interested in that. I doubt I'm going to be able to draw boys into Boy Scouts, at least not in large numbers.">So your AHG Charter Organization is not interested in chartering a BSA Boy Scout Troop. Your AHG families are not interested in putting their sons in a Boy Scout Troop that is affiliated with the AHG Charter Organization. The Boy Scout Troops that your AHG families are members of are not interested in partnering with your AHG group. >My Charter Org would consider a Boy Scout Troop, but we've had no parents interested in starting one to date. We have families associated with several BSA Troops -- enough variety that I'm a little hesitant in singling out one to approach. I could, I suppose, but the guidance I've gotten from AHG National is to check with the BSA District Executive to see if there are any BSA Troops that are looking for an AHG partner troop.>So, again, why are you looking for a Boy Scout Troop, and what do you hope to get out of it?

[ScoutNut]

>>"Mostly because there aren't many AHG troops in my area, and we're a new enough troop that there's a lot we don't know yet. I'd like to find someone willing to shepherd us along a little."

[kcshrader]

You know, we do pretty well at running our own program. It's some of the "extra" stuff that we could use a little help.

 

For example, we recently participated in a Memorial Day flag planting at the local Natl Cemetery. It's a long-standing event -- some troops have been doing it 20+ years -- and it's open to many different organizations. BSA and GSA were both well-represented.

 

Unfortunately, the organizers have gotten the idea that since so many troops have been doing it for so many years, they don't need to give instructions any more. To say we floundered a bit in figuring it out is something of an understatement. If I'd had an leader who'd been there before to team with for the morning, it would have gone so much more smoothly. Is that really so onerous a burden? And really, would a few more families have made it that much more complicated an event? Truly, we had such a high % of parents participating, we might've been able to assist in some of the BSA YP guidelines -- I'm assuming you have to meet ratios and such.

[shortridge]

kcshrader -

 

Just a suggestion: You could also have simply walked up to one of the other leaders or organizers and asked your questions about how the flag ceremony worked. Even if you had a "partner" relationship with a BSA troop, there would be no guarantee that troop would even have been participating at this event. If that's all you can come up with, it kind of sounds like you're aiming for a solution in search of a problem, to be honest.

 

FYI, BSA's YP rules require two-deep leadership, or two leaders per troop. There's no 5:1 or 10:1 Scout-adult ratio or anything. And patrols can do service projects on their own, with no adults present, with the approval of their Scoutmaster. So your parents wouldn't actually have added anything to the BSA troop.

 

WoundedFox -

 

You said: "Is anyone aware of any national direction that I can bring to the attention of my local council to help them decide that they are allowed (or encouraged, or even required) to allow AHG leaders to register for various courses..."

 

To "help them decide" that they are "required"?? Sounds like coercion to me.

 

If AHG's processes and systems are cumbersome and bureaucracy-heavy, then taking BSA training courses or partnering with a BSA troop is not going to solve your problem. You need to look inside at AHG and lobby for changes there.