Down playing sin and sins

[Eamonn]

While maybe the Nuns at Holy Cross School may have gone a little over the top, putting fear into the little guys and girls in their charge?

I can't help feeling that a lot of us today are scared that we will do some irreparable harm to our kids and he kids we work with if we tell them what they are doing is so wrong that it is a sin.

We reward kids for just about any and everything, play soccer without keeping score, everyone gets a trophy. Yells of "Good try" fill the air.But yet when someone does wrong (Sins.) We have an alphabet of illnesses and diagnoses that are used to cover up the wrong.

Parents become the whipping boys for children who behave badly. It's the parents fault that little Tim was scared by a plumber when he was being potty trained and this caused him to become a ....

I do see that all of us and our children are exposed to people pretending to do wrong at all times of the day and night on TV. The bad guys as a rule get caught but along the way the good guys are jumping in and out of bed with who ever is available at the time.

Our children who have access to the world wide web can find out and often see all sorts of sins being committed and sometimes glorified.

I don't think we can protect our children from this sort of thing. I do think that it's important that we take the time to talk with them and listen to them so that they gain an understanding that things are wrong and some things are indeed sins.

Eamonn.

[packsaddle]

We are monkeys.

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Sin is a very subjective thing, one not uniform to all belief systems. To even entertain discussion of this topic with scouts crosses a line we as leaders dont cross. This is the province of parents and religious leaders. As far as program, its important that we remain are of, and sensitive too, the restrictions and tenements of all belief systems, and shape our program to not run afoul of any of them. Abrahamic belief systems include sin in greatly varied forms, most others do not. The differences in what is sin is massive when comparing someone who practices Hasidic Judaism, and a Unitarian Universalist, or a follow of Sunni Islamic beliefs to a follower of the Eastern Orthodox Doctrine; all Abrahamic belief systems. To compound discussion of sin further, try explain the concept of sin to a Zoroastrian or Theravada scout.

 

My point is were into something here that should not be a scout program discussion, except in as far as acknowledging the need to use broad strokes when dealing with matters of faith with scouts, or scouters. The definition of A Scout is Reverent, right out of the Boy Scout Handbook sets the scope, and tone, for handling religion as a program element.

 

[Eagledad]

>>I don't think we can protect our children from this sort of thing. I do think that it's important that we take the time to talk with them and listen to them so that they gain an understanding that things are wrong and some things are indeed sins.

[Eamonn]

"Sin is a very subjective thing, one not uniform to all belief systems. To even entertain discussion of this topic with scouts crosses a line we as leaders dont cross."

I couldn't disagree more.

I'm very much a run of the mill ordinary little fellow.

Not really expert in anything and certainly not an expert in religion or the different religions of the world.

By volunteering to be a Scout Leader, I set myself up to be and act as an example to the youth members who I serve.

All this in an organization that is about doing what it can to teach ethical choices to the youth members.

In order to do this I fall back on my values and my beliefs.

While at times maybe when things go very wrong I do act as a policeman, judge and jury.

I don't impose my religious views on others, still I don't shy away from them.

To do so would be wrong.

While I don't claim to know a lot about other religions, I respect the religion and the people who follow or practice it.

I most definitely don't see discussing right from wrong or sin with the youth we serve as in any way crossing the line.

My values and beliefs are very much a part of me and a reason why I volunteered in the fist place.

 

Ea.

 

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Eamonn, perhaps the way I made my post was not the best choice to make my point. Let me come at it another way. Our thread is about sin, but sin is a component of a narrow group of the belief systems our scouts practice. Our discussion, and our programs, should take a wider approach to the topic of values, instead focusing on doing the right thing. Sin is the word you choose, likely because its the one used in your belief system to address this type of topic, but your posts do touch on the larger picture.

 

 

Old Ox wrote: "Sin is a very subjective thing, one not uniform to all belief systems. To even entertain discussion of this topic with scouts crosses a line we as leaders dont cross."

Eamonn wrote: I couldn't disagree more.

I'm very much a run of the mill ordinary little fellow.

Not really expert in anything and certainly not an expert in religion or the different religions of the world.

By volunteering to be a Scout Leader, I set myself up to be and act as an example to the youth members who I serve.

All this in an organization that is about doing what it can to teach ethical choices to the youth members.

In order to do this I fall back on my values and my beliefs.

While at times maybe when things go very wrong I do act as a policeman, judge and jury.

I don't impose my religious views on others, still I don't shy away from them.

To do so would be wrong.

While I don't claim to know a lot about other religions, I respect the religion and the people who follow or practice it.

I most definitely don't see discussing right from wrong or sin with the youth we serve as in any way crossing the line.

My values and beliefs are very much a part of me and a reason why I volunteered in the fist place.

 

Ea.

 

Eamonn, what I was getting at is we are not an organization of one religion, or even a group of closely related belief systems. We need to take care in presenting our program so that the message reaches all our scouts, and in a positive way. Im sure this is what you do, your posts speak for you, and your concern for the youth in your charge.

 

[acco40]

I agree, the concept of sinning, repenting confession, etc. does not belong in the Scout program proper. We have the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

 

Does a Scout who is going to turn 18 tomorrow "sin" by not joining the Army and thus do his "duty" to country? Hopefully, most of you will say no. Sin is a religious concept that has only an obtuse relationship to right and wrong.

 

There have been many times my kids wanted to do something that was in their mind an acceptable behavior even while they knew it is a sin. . . . I guess what Im saying is that I tried to teach my kids to feel guilty for even thinking about making the wrong choice.

 

You sound like my very "Catholicized" wife! Yes at a very young age, as a child, we shouldn't try to make every action a cerebral event. But come on, I expect my 16, 19 and 20 year old "kids" to act appropriately not because someone's book labels an act a sin but because in their mind, they should have an intrinsic feeling for what is right and wrong. Teaching your children to feel guilty for even thinking about making the wrong choice doesn't sound very healthy to me although I will agree that the concept of shame seems to have vaporized from our society.

[packsaddle]

My list of a few things I've been told were sins:

Coffee

Alcohol

Pot

Tobacco

Dancing

Gambling

Singing (might be correct in my case)

Flying kites (I just don't 'get' this at all)

Coveting almost anything

Lying

Stealing

Borrowing money

Causing unnecessary harm

Wanton waste

etc.

 

So sins might be pleasurable. Or they might be harmful. Or both. And some of the above are confined to interactions between persons. But only a few seem to be universally accepted as behaviors to be avoided. And I doubt that many of us would claim ALL of this list as sins.

I can't tell you how guilty I felt when I had to take out a loan to pay for my first child's medical expenses when he was born (insurance didn't cover any of it). And once in a while I feel a little guilty when gobbling down chocolate in front of almost any woman (well, not TOO guilty). Oops that one wasn't on the list.

Let's see, I've coveted lots of things - cars, houses, ability to sing...so far I have not coveted another man's wife (why in the heck would anyone who is already married do that?...they're already miserable enough)

I fly kites shamelessly. And I partake of caffeine...h'mmm...no guilt there either. I don't smoke pot or use tobacco. I have consumed alcohol before but went cold turkey on that about 3 or 4 years ago. I have told lies (why do women ASK us those questions anyway?) and once in a while I steal from the cookie jar (I always confess later). To go along with singing, I can't dance either so I'm safe on that one. I have gambled before but it is something I evidently don't 'get' so I couldn't care less about it. I buy lottery tickets for my MIL, I guess that is a sin too. I never intentionally cause unnecessary harm but there are a few persons I would like to cause harm to. I know I'll feel guilty, though, if I ever do it so I probably won't.

Sad to say, when Rooster7 implied that I would experience warmer climes someday (and he didn't believe in global warming), I know that if that mythical place really does exist and I get to bask in the heat, it will probably be due to sins of omission (a whole other category).

 

I agree with Acco40, while we should not have to 'think' about some of these things each time we're tempted, it would be nice to understand the rational reasons that we should or should not make certain decisions...without mindlessly following some rule book. Of course, that rule book is useful if.....

[acco40]

You do know why Baptists don't have sex standing up?

 

Someone might think they are dancing.

 

I'm guilty of crude statements to garnish attention.

[Beavah]

Yah, sure packsaddle. All of those are sins, eh? Or more accurately, all of those can be sins. Even flying kites, if it means you're flyin' 'em in thunderstorms to tempt fate, or flyin' 'em instead of doin' something else where you are really needed, or... Gamblin' can just be entertainment, or, as some bankers demonstrated with financial derivatives, it can be a sin.

 

Da problem you're strugglin' with is with rule books, not with sin. We all recognize sin at some level, eh? We see people hurt. We see people hurt themselves. We see people make choices that make 'em less than the person they could be. And we recognize all da same things in ourselves.

 

As far as sin goes, rule books are just guides for those who are learnin', eh? Just like your students have textbooks. Is everything in a freshman biology text really perfectly accurate? Nah. And even if it were there's no guarantee the kids would read it right. When yeh take students off to your island paradise, I'm sure yeh have permission slips and booklets and all the rest. There's stuff in there that's pretty solid, there's stuff in there that yeh put in to be helpful but you know doesn't always apply and all the rest. We use books to teach, eh? And lectures and whatnot. But in the end the books and the lectures and the whatnot aren't the Truth. In the end the student has to experience the world, and think, and step on da occasional sea urchin.

 

Learnin' how to be a good person's the same, eh? Yeh can start with da Textbook, and lectures/sermons and whatnot. They're pretty good, eh? But even when the textbook is perfect there's no guarantee folks will read it right. In the end, we all have to experience and build a relationship with God and the world, and think. Yah, sure, and step on da occasional sea urchin.

 

There's stuff I used to think was fine, that now I recognize was really selfish/sinful. Wish I had listened to the Textbook. There are other things where I now understand I was just readin' things wrong, because I brought too much of my own baggage to the text. It happens.

 

Beavah

[packsaddle]

Yeah, I'm OK with what you are saying and I agree.

 

Edit: oops, hit the wrong button. So if I read you correctly, this means I can eat the chocolate, right? No guilt? OK, maybe just a little?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Eamonn]

acco40,

I tend to agree with a lot of what you posted.

As parents we do our best to pass on values to our kids and teach them right from wrong.

Values are strange things and can depend on the way we see the world and how we see and do things.

I have friends who beat themselves up when they miss a day at the gym.

I've never been in a gym since I left school.

My parents thought it was the end of the world if they missed going to Mass. I don't like to not go, but I don't see it as being the end of the world.

Still in the way I see things missing Mass is bigger than not making it to the gym.

Most of us will agree that some things are just not acceptable. Murder is one of these.

I know and talk with guys who have murdered and been convicted. Strange as it might sound, I like some of these guys. It's not like they have a big letter "M" On their forehead. They are in jail, serving time for what they did. But when I talk and deal with them, what they done isn't the first thing I deal with. While of course being locked up isn't a picnic, many of the guys who know that this is going to be as good as it gets, make the best of it. Some might even seem to not be having such a bad time.

In my book when the day comes. (Which I believe does happen.) They will answer for what they have done.

 

I don't try and force my religion onto others.

Even at home religion isn't a big topic of discussion. HWMBO is not R/C and has made it known that she is going to remain that way.

When it came down to teaching my kid what was right and what wasn't. I think it was done in the right or not right context.

Sin wasn't brought up.

When it came down to teaching him religion sin was brought up as doing some things were not only wrong but offended God.

Leaving the toilet seat up, might upset HWMBO but it wasn't really a sin.

My son is now a man. While I'm still around to offer whatever help and advise I can. For the most part I feel that my job is done. I gave him what I could, now it's down to him to get on with it.

I like to think I gave him what he needed to be a real man.

While he now can work on his own set of values and work out what is right or wrong for himself. The idea that some things are just so wrong that they are offensive to God as he sees or believes God to be, somehow fits into all of this.

Ea.

 

 

 

 

[acco40]

Eamonn, one thing I've learned is that when trying to teach our children right from wrong and passing along our values our children are certainly different entities. I feel I've made somewhat of an equal effort for each of my children but they sure don't all act the same.

 

As Merle Haggard wrote, Mama tried to raise me better but her pleading I denied, that leaves only me to blame cause mama tried.