Flag Question

[Eamonn]

In the UK most Troop meetings start with the duty Patrol preparing the flag (Union Jack) for Flag Break.

The flag is fold and raised with the line tucked so when the line is pulled the flag breaks open.

My question is there ever a time when the American Flag is not raised but "Broken"?

Ea.

[Scoutfish]

No, there is no offical breaking open of the flag. Flags are to be unfolded and then attached to the lanyard and briskly raised.

 

http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#177

 

UNITED STATES CODE : TITLE 36 : CHAPTER 10 : STATUE 177

 

[shortridge]

The relevant portion of the Flag Code is Section 174(b): "The flag should be hoisted briskly and lowered ceremoniously." It is silent on the exact manner of the brisk hoisting.

 

I've seen it done as Eamonn describes, where the flag is unfolded just enough to hook to the line and then raised quickly so it unfolds fully as it rises. The risk you run is that nylon flags that have been left folded for some time (I've mostly noticed this during the summer heat) can sometimes get "stuck" when raised in that manner, so they only unfold part of the way until enough breeze comes along to shake it all out.

[raisinemright]

Certain countries unfurl the flag. I've seen Canadian flags done like that. The flag is tied in a certain way at the top of the pole and when the rope is pulled, it opens. Looks kind of cool on a windy day.

 

Scoutfish is correct though, the US flag is to be raised, not unfurled

[Twocubdad]

Okay, here's a Memorial Day question for the Sea Scouts:

 

How does one lower the flag -- um, 'scuse me, Ensign -- to half-staff on a yard arm? How about on a gaff?

 

I know the flag/ensign is flown at the truck (highest vertical pole) with a yard arm (horizontal spar attached to the flagpole), but at half-staff it seems to me the flag would get tangle in the yard arm. With a gaff (an spar attached to the main pole at an angle) the US flag/ensign goes on the gaff. But since the reach on a gaff is usually fairly short, seems one would hardly notice the flag as half-staff.

 

Or is there a completely different tradition to indicate periods of mourning with an ensign?

[Eagle92]

On the pole with crosstrees that is most commonly used at naval installations, a flag at half mast has its lower edge level with the crosstrees. An ensign displayed on a pole equipped with a gaff is flown from the gaff, with halfmast being halfway from the ground to the peak of the gaff. When a flag at half-mast is lowered, it is first returned to the truck or peak for a moment before being hauled down. When this is done in the context of evening colors, the raising of the flag to the truck is done before the signal for the salute or the sounding of "Retreat" or the National Anthem. Outside the United States, the flag is half-masted when ordered by the President even if the flag of another country is being flown at full-mast on an adjacent pole.

 

Ships not under way fly the union jack at half mast whenever the ensign is at half mast. The masthead ensigns used to dress or full-dress a ship are not half-masted.

 

Several laws and directives govern when the U.S. naval services fly the ensign at half-mast.

 

On Memorial Day, the last Monday in May, from 8:00 a.m. until 12:20 p.m., as described here. (Note that the practice in the sea services differs from that in the civilian community and in the Army and Air Force, where the flag is raised to the top of the pole at noon.)

 

[Stosh]

One must be vigilant that the traditions of the military and civilian are not the same.

 

There is no "correct" way to fold the flag although we traditionally fold it in the same manner as the military protocol, i.e. the triangle. The triangle fold is specifically designed so as to not have to unfold the flag prior to attaching to the lanyard. Military flags tend to be a bit larger because they are displayed on full flag poles on government installations. I have never seen the military unfold a flag before hoisting. Both grommets are handily available while the flag is still folded. Simply attach correctly, the lanyard will unfurl the flag upon raising. As mentioned a nylon flag will have problems with this, but the nylon flag is an all-weather flag and is displayed appropriately 24/7. Flags that are assumed to be raised and lowered daily are cotton and will not have a problem with unfurling correctly.

 

Is is only when inappropriately applied do problems arise.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Stosh, you are correct in stating the US Code does not prescribe how the flag is to be folded. However, there is a traditional way of folding the flag, and a correct way to show respect. Although our goal is not the emulate the military in all matters, there is nothing wrong with following an example of honoring those who deserve it, through the flag that binds us to our forefathers.

 

With all due respect, our military, that of the United States, began, and has returned to citizen soldiers. We The People protect this nation and defend its people, in uniform when needed, and support become part of the nations workforce when not needed. Those brave, devoted, citizens who stand the post every day deserve our utmost respect.

 

One must be vigilant that the traditions of the military and civilian are not the same, is horse-hocky. We are one people, and in as far as Scouting, it was based on a military model at its inception, and continues to be so. There is danger in being confused with military, and that must be avoided, but beyond that there is much of value to learn from the military.

 

[KC9DDI]

and a correct way to show respect.

 

I think there's more than one correct way to show respect. My preference would be for Scouts to develop a deeper level of respect and understanding beyond just the shape that the flag gets folded into.

 

One must be vigilant that the traditions of the military and civilian are not the same, is horse-hocky.

 

I've met more than one soldier who would strongly disagree with you. There's certain cultural values and traditions which unite all Americans, and certain traditions specific to those who serve in the armed forces. There's nothing wrong with that, and no use in pretending that its not the case.

[Hawkrod]

I strongly agree with KC9DDI, there is not "A" correct way to show respect, there are a lot of ways. Even within our military it can be, and is, done in different ways. Anybody who says there is only one way is really missing the point. The law is very un-specific and for most of it the law pretty much only indicates that the flag be handled respectfully. I will give you a perfect example that I mentioned in the other thread I responded to, retirement done by cutting the flag. I find that idea abhorent and consider it desecration of the flag. I think it is disrespectful to make rags from a flag so that it is no longer a flag. That was why I was having such a difficult time a few weeks ago when we were discussing retiring a large flag. My son and I really did not want to cut it up because we think it is horrible to do that. Others will disagree and I sit quietly while they do it their way but I would never suggest to anybody that it is a good way to do it. Opinions are good but don't mistake them for rules or laws.

[emb021]

"One must be vigilant that the traditions of the military and civilian are not the same."

 

No.

 

I'd say one must be careful as the traditions of the military and civilian are not always the same.

 

 

A perfect example is the wearing the flag patches on the sleeves. The *military* has decided to wear them with the canton to the wearer's front. However, the US flag Code is clear that the canton should be to the left side of the flag, hence the way the flag patches are on the BSA uniform is JUST FINE. There is NO REASON to change them or claim they are incorrect.

 

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

HAWKROD,

I have heard of cutting a flag into strips before burning instead of just burning the bwhole flag in a pile or folded since cutting i strips allows the flag to burn better instead of smoldering.

 

Not sure if this is the same thing you are talking about, but if so, I can see doing it to impliment better burning.

[Hawkrod]

I have never had need to "impliment better burning". Flags laid gently in the fire burn just fine whether they are folded or open. I see no need to desecrate the flag to retire it. Just my opinion, but as I noted, as long as it is done respectfully it is acceptable. I personally just don't see cutting it up as respectful.

[desertrat77]

For many years, I was against cutting the flag into strips before burning.

 

Then I moved, and volunteered to serve on staff at the fall camporee. One of my first tasks was "Help us cut these old flags up." As the new guy, I bit my tongue, got my pocketknife out, and started cutting.

 

At the closing campfire, each scout was handed a piece of the flag, and as they departed, everyone walked by the dying embers and dropped their flag strip in. Coupled with the brief but eloquent words beforehand by the emcee, I found this to be the most moving flag ceremony I had seen to date. Why? Mainly because each person at the camporee was part of the ceremony, not just the flag detail. And you could tell, collectively, the ceremony hit home for all.

 

Looking back, I recall when cutting the old flags that every one of them was torn, faded, with rusted grommets, etc...cutting them up wasn't going to harm them much more anyhow.

[SSScout]

Yep, you can do it both ways , with good reasons for both.

 

Desert: I collect old USFlags for retirement purposes. When I see a flag on a pole in my travels, I very often stop by and and ask them when the flag is faded and worn from the weather, and about to be replaced, please give me a call and I will come by and collect it for a proper retirement ceremony. I explain what that may entail, and boy, do I collect flags. I give them one of my ADC cards with a note about why to call me. When I teach IOLS, my campleader always gives a small patiotic talk about what America means to him, and invites the rest of the class to speak as they are led. Often, we have enough flags to give each a whole one to place in the fire, but usually, we cut up the flags I have collected into pices and give each participant a piece . Each participant that chooses to speak , says his piece and tosses his/her flag piece into the fire. It is explained that just as each is a piece of the flag, we are each a piece of America.

It was once explained to me by one SM that he cut up the flags so that no one could claim we were burning a USFlag out of disrespect, that once cut into pices, it was no longer a flag. I think I like my campleader's idea better.