Poor guidance = Dull program = fewer scouts

[Eamonn]

To kinda add to what Barry said.

As adults we aim for perfection.

I've looked at meals that Scouts have cooked and thought, how in the world can anyone eat that? Meanwhile the Scouts in a Patrol are scoffing it down.

Later I've asked what happened to dinner?

The Scouts know what was wrong and are able to work out where it went wrong and why it went wrong.

They ate it because they were hungry and maybe because there wasn't much else to eat.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of things that have not gone as well as maybe I might have liked and the Scouts know haven't gone as they planned or imagined.

Part of being a SM is to be able to provide a safe place for them to be able to admit what didn't work and explore why it didn't.

Of course sometimes there is bravado to cut through, Scouts don't want or like criticism's. Still once they learn that there is no big stick and that no one is pointing the finger. They aren't silly, they know what went wrong where and can make plans to try and ensure it doesn't happen again.

Trust is a two way street, I trust the Scouts that I've trained and I need them to be able to trust me.

Trust me to help them by allowing them at times to not be perfect and at times fail and then not try and appoint blame, just explore what was learned or gained from the experience.

 

I have always thought it to be a great honor that the Scouts let me in and are willing to place their trust in me. For me not to trust them?

Just isn't Scouting.

Ea.

[CricketEagle]

Eadgledad, I am not sure if you a writing to me, or to the posters in the forum as a whole. As this posting is way off topic. On the boy led level: Keep in mind I am part of a very young troop. Yes we have 2 boys going to NYLT this summer as we did last year (only one bothered to show up). However, when they got back to the troop, to my knowledge no major effort was done to include them in planning. To that end, the adult leadership did not work much with those boys and teach them planning. (we had our own leadership crisis at the same time).

 

So we need to back up and start over. Some of the committe feel the boys should be able to plan 100% on there own already, but they never provided the intermeadiate steps. So the "training" aspect did not happen on the troop level. The new SM and ASM are trying to fix this now via the PLC.

 

We are starting with them planning the smaller outings: But for now we are back to having them plan "parts" of outings with guidance while they adapt to the 14 eleven year olds in the troop. The 13 year olds are still adjusting to the concept that they are in charge. We only have 1 boy that can drive a car who does not show up much

 

OGE: You are on the right track to understanding. PART of the dull program was an over emphasis on having the boys plan with out guidance or inspiration. The "cannot do" elements also squashed some of the inspiration.

 

FYI I found the training needed 6 hours away in WV.

 

 

[CricketEagle]

Eamonn,

 

I am not sure how you guys got an issue of trust out of this. I have had more than my share of outmeal over and over and ramen noodles.

 

I trust that the boys can do more "physically" than most people give them credit for. (given the proper training and support).

 

I also trust that can plan run things better than most people give them credit for. (again given proper training and support).

 

as I wrote to OGE.

"PART of the dull program was an over emphasis on having the boys plan with out guidance or inspiration. The "cannot do" elements also squashed some of the inspiration"..

The key phrase was "with out guidance or inspiration".

 

Some training has been given in this case, but the follow up support was not.

So we have to back up and try again. During this time, we still need to provide a good program.

 

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Cricket

 

I think you need to define your own definition of "guidance". To guide a group is to make sure they stay on course when planning activities, it does NOT mean taking control and manipulating the process yourself to get the results you want. Being a guide means you show/teach the boys the steps in properly planning an event and then let them take control and get it done. If they miss a few steps along the way, you gently point them out and give it back to the boys to complete. After a few times you will be surprised how good they become at the process.

 

In my own experience as a SM and a DE the troops I found that always seemed to be in trouble were the ones adult controlled, not only did the adults constantly argue with each other, they were bad examples for the boys who eventually got tired of all the nonsense and quit the troop. You need to trust the process and resist the urge to control or dominate the planning process, the results might just surprise you.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Eagle92]

Cricket,

 

You said you have a relatively new troop. NOW THAT CHANGES SOME THINGS! The dynamics of a new troop, or a troop that is rebuilding/starting over, is copmpletely different than an established troop. heck it mike take 5-8 years to make your troop "established" in my limited expereince, b/c of the turnover in both youth and adult leadership. It seems that just as you get a scout ready to take over, they age out, catch the " 'fumes," i.e. "Perfume and Car Fumes," or they quit the troop.

 

 

If you want to get the PLs to actually do the work, may I recommend the 3rd ed. SMHB, both volumes. In it is a lesson plan to train your new scouts in the patrol method and to do things on their own. Will you have to update the info a little, yep b/c it was written in the 1920s or 30s, BUT THE BOOK CONTAINS THE FOUNDATION OF THE PATROL METHOD AND A BOY LED TROOP! (caps for emphasis, ok a little shouting too as I am a very big fan of Green Bar Bill, and equate him to saving the BSA after the Urban Scouting disaster, but I digress).

 

If memory serves it takes about 6 months to get the scouts up to speed. You start off adult led and gradually, using hte process get them youth led.

 

 

Now it isn't a panacea, it isn't a quick fix, and it is not an easy process. One troop I helped out with a few years back IS still stuggling to be 100% boy led. I mentioned some of those reasons above pertaining to the youth side of things, but one I did not mention was the interference of adults. Some adults get too involved, taking away from the scout experience. Some adults have transferred to more adult run troops bringing their sons with them, some have left Scouting altogether. A few have remained, and yes complained about "their treatment from the SM." Luckily I know the SM very well, heck I trained him, know the dad very well, his younger son is in my den, and I was able to explain the situation and rationale. Luckily a few of the other dads in the den who were scouts explained that the SM is right and that the scouts do the things for themselves and learn form their mistakes.

 

[CricketEagle]

BP, your definition of guidance and mine are the same. It is the same methods I use in scouts and at work. I rarely even say much during the troop meetings. I speak mostly to the SPL and PL's before and after meetings. Word of encouragement, what went well etc. Trying only step in when there a behavior problem the old boys can't quite handle.

 

To that end both the old and younger boys need to know that there are adults that support them on doing the "big" things. Not right way hit them up with a list of "cannots", but rather present things a list of smaller tasks they can chip away at.

 

E92, gets dynamic well this well, a very old troop currently rebuilding. Down to as few as 8 boys at meetings. Now flush with recruiting success and up to nearly 30. I am greatful for the problems we have.

[Eagle92]

Some ideas to help.

 

1) Make sure you spread the experienced Scouts around the tenderfoots.

 

2) Alot of prep work for major trips is making sure the scouts know the basics, the T-2-1 stuff, and can do it in a very proficient manner. I'd have the older guys teaching the younger guys their skills. It gets the new guys up to speed, and keeps the older ones proficient.

 

3)Make sure your weekend camp outs use the basics, as well as any advance skills the scouts have been working on.

 

4) make sure to keep the older guys interest by not only letting them lead, but also do some stuff on their own.

 

Good luck.

[OldGreyEagle]

I have to ask, what training are you looking for?

 

Youth today often are so used to having their schedules set for them, they have no idea what to do when asked to plan for somehting they would like to do.

 

At a planning meeting the question is asked what do you want to do? often this is the quietest part of the year Finally somebody will say "lets narfle the garthok" to which a few people say sure, lets narfle the garthok. It gets on the calender and no one signs up to go. Nobody wanted to narfle the garthok but they said yes to make the adults happy. Some will hoever comment how come we never do anything fun, but them not be able to articulate just what that is "fun"

 

So, for the first year, yes you (the adult(s)) have to do most of the planning. A pioneering campout, lashing stuff, a survior campout (w/wo chickens its up to you), cooking, Fishing, Boldering, Mountaineering all that stuff so the next time you ask what do you want to do, they have a base of experience to draw from

[Eagle92]

Another idea to help out, have your troop get either an old copy of WOODS WISDOM, or buy the 4 volume update TROOP PROGRAM HELPS V1-3 and TROOP RESOURCE BOOK. They have ideas that the scouts can use and run with. I fyou do everything in the books, you got three years of program without repeats. But sometimes repeats are fun and are what the scout s want.

[BadenP]

Cricket

 

eagle92 gives you some excellent resources to refer to, which I hope you do.

 

OGE's comments, while humorous,are not really true and will ultimately lead to a lazy troop dynamic and a dull program. These teens are perfectly able to plan an event, even if they haven't previously, and will do so unless you bail them out and do all the work yourself. Sure maybe the first event or two will have some rough spots, so start them off small. If the adults do ALL the planning every time treating them like Cub Scouts the boys WILL get bored and leave the troop. You may be amazed just how quick your boys learn how to organize, especially if you are there to answer a question or two, instead of always being the crutch the boys depend on to make sure everything gets done.

[CricketEagle]

BP,

 

yes I caught the humor in OGE's comments. At least he left out any sens-o-ring jokes. However I am not sure you caught how young a group we have. OGE is correct that many of these youths are used to having everything handed to them. That will not change overnight and having what few "older" boys teach the younger boys the basic "brownsea skills" is the starting point that has been chosen. That is the small events we have chosen for the older boys to work at organizing. Keep in mind even our older boys are still quite young. 13's for most. It is a start.

 

Now back to the original point of my posting:

>Step one: Boys mention the might like to try white water canoeing or rafting in a few years. So I agree to look into it if it is even possible.

> Road Block one: Committee member objects saying "cannots" no way, scouts not allowed (I am over generalizing here, but that is the attitude).

> Step 2: I look into this further: I find some references in scouting guides saying it is ok. providing special training taken etc.

> Road Block two: finding the training...not easy.

> step three: I go back and re-read the scouting guides (safety afloat). Further down the page it clearly says that the Troop can deligate the expertise needed by hiring a professional guide etc.

> Step four: going back to the committee politely with the "real" language.

 

Then I can go back to the scouts. Start talking and "guide" them into a series of small steps they can execute. That way, they may safely take a white water trip next year or later. The goal of the "big trip" should help the boys take the planning part more seriously. There is a great deal they can learn by that process.

 

Back to the adults saying "cannots". I should have known better. There is always a way

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Ok, I'm getting a better understanding of the situation now. It's partially the scouts not knowign what to do, so yes a little, stressing LITTLE, help and guidance is needed.

 

But it sounds like the major obstacle so far is the committee, and if it's the case then yes you are doing right and giving them info.

 

Ok here's some additional info specific to Aquatics. There is now a BSA Aquatics Supervision:Paddle Craft Safety course. I don't know much about it, haven't taken it yet, but form the description found here

 

http://www.lhacbsa.org/LDS/Events/AquaticsTrainingMayLDS2011

 

Paddle Craft Safety and Swimming and Water Rescue provide in-depth training in Safe Swim Defense & Safety Afloat principles along with basic swimming, boating, & rescue skills. Situations requiring more advanced skills are reviewed, with sources for such trainings. These 2 courses are highly recommended for unit leaders whenever a unit swims at a location without professional lifeguards or undertakes a boating expedition without a trained lifeguard...Safety Afloat awareness training provides guidelines for safe float trips and is required of unit leaders, but does not provide the skill training mandated by those guidelines. Paddle Craft Safety expands Safety Afloat training to include skills, as well as knowledge, to prepare a unit leader to confidently supervise canoeing or kayaking excursions on flat water...Successful completion of these trainings takes a minimum of 8 hours of instruction (for each) and each is valid for 3 years. All Paddle Craft Safety and Swimming & Water Rescue training participants must:

Be at least 16 years of age

Be able to complete the BSA Swim Test

Have a current/valid BSA Annual Health & Medical Form

 

So that training may be a start for you to prep for you trip.

 

Other things I'd do for the next 12-18 months.

 

1) Treat every weekend trip as if it was a water trip, i.e. packing the basics, waterproofing everything (you'd be surprised), and if possible do some canoe weekends.

 

2) Have every scout interested work on Canoeing MB, whether at summer camp or on their own.

 

3)Have weekend trips were you focus on aqautic skills, i.e. rescues, first aid (please include ID of hypothermia ) reading the water routes etc.

 

4) Repeat 3 some more -

 

5) Get an outside expert if you feel uncomfortable or want to have them evaluate the group.

 

6) Make sure your scouts are doign the teaching and supervising of skills. It can be hard, it can get interesting at times (don't recommend doing swamped canoe drills with water skiers around) and it can sometimes even get distracting ( two words: bikini-clad girls), but if they work, and work and work, with an emphasis on improving their skills, it will become automatic for them to handle situations on their own.

 

7) Something like a canoe trip that they have prepared for can actually build the troop and get it on youth run footing.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

A few times a week HWMBO will ask,"What do you want for supper tomorrow?"

I as a rule haven't given this any thought.

The conversation goes on with me asking "What have you got?"

This is a little unfair of me, as while I don't know exactly what foods in the house, I do have a fair idea of what's more than lightly in the freezer and a good idea of maybe what's not.

I know that she buys food when it's on sale and uses her handy dandy vacuum thingy to package it and then freeze it.

So there's a good chance that if I were to look in the freezer I'd find different cuts of beef, pork, chicken, salmon, shrimp. I'm far less lightly to find veal chops, lobster, liver and lamb chops as these don't go on sale very often.

My "What have you got?" Acts like a red flag to a bull and prompts a "You know what's in the freezer?"

We have talked about making a list of what we are going to eat and when. But after 28 years we still haven't ever got around too doing it.

HWMBO is not a very good cook and she doesn't like to cook.

I like to cook and am very good at it.

Every so often I'll visit different markets and pick up different herbs, spices, oils, pastas and stuff that will make whatever we pull out of the freezer more interesting and more fun to eat.

When we ask a PLC what they want to do?

They have a good idea of what's on the "Menu". They know that camping, hiking, swimming, are always in the freezer. If the Troop has canoes or other equipment they know that.

When our PLC met to plan the year ahead, we started with themes for each month.

Every now and then as SM, I might need to help guide them by asking questions such as "Are you sure you want to go canoeing in March?" Sometimes I had to tell them what they wanted to do just wasn't possible. Last year the Ship wanted to go caving in December, this wasn't possible because the caves close Thanksgiving weekend.

Once they got used to the idea that they were really in charge, they came up with more ideas than we could possibly accommodate. When it looked like we were falling into a rut doing th same old same old. I again might ask what could be done to make this more interesting?

Of course the longer they had been in the Troop the better idea they had of what could be done.

Sometimes they wanted to do the same old same old.

My role at a PLC meeting was more about helping the SPL keep things moving along than my input.

At times I cheated by planting ideas before the meeting. It's strange what can happen when a couple of P/L's are left in the van on a long drive home!

 

RE: "I am not sure how you guys got an issue of trust out of this."

 

I've lost count of the number of times I have posted:

Train them, trust them, let them lead.

The main job /role of a SM is to train the youth leaders. Training them or teaching them skills is for the most part not that hard, so long as the person doing the training or the teaching has the skill and can work with kids to pass it on. Many of the skills we teach have an element of risk in them. We try and eliminate that risk by explaining what that risk or danger might be and establishing guide lines. (My bigger is footwear when using an ax!)

The hard part for me has been trying to train the youth leaders how to be leaders.

Each and every Scout is different. Some are natural leaders who have something that makes others just want to follow them. Others need help, some are not good at being able to see the task ahead and getting the job done. Some feel that being a leader means browbeating and bullying others to get the job done.

While I don't have a problem with courses and book learning. I do feel that Scouts learn to lead by leading.

I have seen young P/L's really struggle trying to get their Patrol to set up camp. I have sometimes stepped in by asking the SPL to have a word, sometimes when the SPL isn't that great I have pulled the P/L to one side and asked what the problem is?

The truth is that I know that there will be times, hopefully lots of times when the P/L's and other youth leaders will be on their own and with no one to fall back on, will be faced with the task of leadership.

I have to trust them.

I have to trust that they have the skills needed.

I have to trust that they are capable of leading the Patrol to get the job done.

Being as this is "On the job" training, I realize that things might not always work out.

When things don't work out, rather than scold or chastise, I try to use the situation to become part of the training.

The youth leaders need to be able to lead because that's what is needed and that's what their job is. I don't ever want them to be scared or fearful that they have to do their job because of me or what I might do.

A big part of what we do has to do with character training. For me a lot of this boils down to doing the right thing, because it is the right thing to do and has nothing to do with what the consequences might be for not doing it.

Trust is a very important part of leadership and the more we are able to trust our youth leaders the more we are able to challenge them.

Scouts quit Scouting because they don't feel challenged.

Of course they also need fun and adventure, but when you put fun, adventure and new challenges in the same pot, you get a far better program with a lot less Scouts quiting.

Ea.

 

 

 

[BadenP]

Cricket

 

Your first step with the young boys is a good starter, however don't make the mistake of spoonfeeding them a lil bit here and there either. Boys 11 years of age if challenged can and do rise to the occasion if you give them the opportunity. If you give them one small event to plan to start, guided by the PL, SPL, and if they are at least partially successful they will be motivated and eager to plan the next event. Taking baby steps with them however will only lead to a lot of frustration for you and for them.

[TAHAWK]

"Another fiction is that Scouting has 100 pages of rules and regulations."

 

Right you are. It's more than 100 pages. Add Insignia Guide to G2SS and you are past 100 and just getting started.

 

It's what bureaucrats do.

 

^____^

 

(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)