Poor guidance = Dull program = fewer scouts

[scoutmaster52]

Keep pushing back Cricket. Without my pushback, my scout would have never played football on a campout. The training committee in my district was teaching that football was not in the realm of Safe scouting, because it says it in the guide. No so. What it says is no team football.

[Kudu]

CricketEagle writes:

 

I openly admit I come from the perspective of the old school.

 

... Wasnt that part of BPs original method?

 

Part of the confusion results from using the term "Patrol Method" when we really mean "Troop Method."

 

Key indicators are discussions limited to Troop concepts like "PLC," "Boy-Led Troop," and "Yearly Planning."

 

In "B-P's original method" when a Patrol "planned" an outing it was more along the lines of:

 

"Want to hike to the old mill on Saturday?"

 

"OK, do you want to take sandwiches or cook a hot meal?"

 

That is the Patrol Method: A boy-sized group in which eight friends have boy-sized adventures. Adventures that included cooked food required more "planning" but it was still on a boy-scale.

 

If you do "come from the perspective of the 'old school'" and want to run things more along "B-P's original method," you might want to read how his PLC sessions actually work:

 

http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm

 

Note that the Patrol Leaders are highly competent at organizing their own monthly hikes but when they plan a whole-Troop campout, they decide on the general theme and then delegate the details to the adult leaders!

 

OMG!

 

Maybe that has implications for your "young" Troop's PLC?

 

As for the actual Patrol-based Patrol Method, you can scale it down to 21st century standards by using Baden-Powell's rule that Patrols be no closer than 300 feet apart when camping with other Patrols. You will be surprised at how quickly Scouts grow when given just that little taste of what the BSA once called the "Real" Patrol Method!

 

I second Eagle92's suggestion that you read the Two-Volume 3rd edition of the Handbook for Scoutmasters. It includes a Troop training course for Patrol Leaders using the "Real" Patrol Method. They are available for about $20 per volume at the following URL. To be sure you have the right edition, look for the word "Volume" in the description:

 

http://tinyurl.com/3vc7cen

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[Engineer61]

Does everyone realize that Scouting is a *very* focused program?

 

Being an outdoor and community service centric program, Scouting appeals to a very small segment of kids to begin with. And mind you, you have to appeal to the parents as well. The program is immediately "dull" to anyone who is not focused on those aspects.

 

When you throw Duty to God, Morally Straight and the Pledge of Allegiance into the mix, all that does is narrow the band even more.

 

Even the Duty to God becomes focused on a Christian version in most cases at the Troop level.

 

All of this should be obvious ... Scouting is set up to appeal to a vary narrow set of people...

[Eagle92]

Some interesting points Eng.

 

In reference to the outdoors, yep there are folks who do not like the outdoors, but in my expereince more folks want the outdoors than you imagine. It's when the program does not meet their expectations that folks leave.

 

I admit, after I went to jambo and did my 50 miler in Canada, most weekend trips were not the same. Add to that the bad case of "The 'Fumes" I got, perfume and car fumes, well work took precedence. PLUS I had to work to help support myself and mom. While I wished I was camping, I wasn't, and dreamed of HA challenges. But eventually I wound back up camping and having a blast.

 

Service should not be a problem. But again I see out culture becoming more and more of a ' ME ME ME ME ME ME! Culture." Ditto the fact that the key points of the Scout Oath and Law are now challenges in our society.

 

As for units becoming focused on one religion, well I can see that as a real challenge, but do know where it is coming from. Since most COs are religious institutions, and element of favoritism to a specific religion CAN and DOES happen at the unit level, esp. is the IH is heavily involved in the program.

[BadenP]

Engineer

 

Your definition of scouting is much more applicable to scouting of the 50's-60's, and earlier, rather than the scouting of today. There is one troop in my district who only goes camping once or twice a year, the outdoors is no longer at the forefront of most troop programs today, sad but true. Community service seems to consist of one minor service a year, like a food drive or something even less involved. The new CSE seems to go right along with this trend as well.

[Engineer61]

Hi BadenP,

 

I want to key in on something you said:

 

"Your definition of scouting is much more applicable to scouting of the 50's-60's, and earlier, rather than the scouting of today."

 

While this may be the case, it is the perception that persists today. BSA does little to change that perception in the marketing of BSA, just looking that Scouting magazines and the pitches given by both Cubs and Troops, it was all about outdoors, community service and advancement, in that order.

 

In some locales, the perception of Scouting in the 50's and 60's was MUCH worse that what I've conveyed. My locale was probably an extreme example, but maybe not.

 

As for the community service aspect, I think there is far too much focus on it in BSA. I think the ratio of CS hours to outing hours is probably 3:1.

 

As for the "ME ME ME" argument from Eagle92...I agree. We always have been what you would term a "ME Society". We've always put Personal Responsibility comes first ... until "The Great Society" twisted it around ... Our first obligation used to be to care and provide for those in our family first, so that I am not a burden on my community, and help others in times of urgent need only. Now, that is somehow bad ... a societal flaw that now threatens to bankrupt the USA as it has nearly done every country in Europe.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, there are too many in today's society that believe that someone else "owes" them something and that attitude as overtaxed the limits of what the community (including BSA) can provide.

 

[CricketEagle]

Wow, has this posting really gone off track. The original topic has more to do with adults saying "cannots" and taking boy led to an extreme.

 

(That is without given the boys support and the chance on smaller tasks first.)

 

Obviously this topic is a hot one and brings up strong reactions from many.

 

Maybe we should close the discussion and open another one based simply on the methods of scouting? Although, I bet if I look around some I would find that topic over and over.

 

 

[Gary_Miller]

Engineer61,"As for the community service aspect, I think there is far too much focus on it in BSA. I think the ratio of CS hours to outing hours is probably 3:1."

 

I have to agree with Engineer61 on this one.

 

It seems that some units are placing why to much emphasis is being placed on Community Service and not on scouting skills and getting out in the woods doing scouting. In the last few years it seems, at least in my area, that the scouts have become cheap labor for the city and the county to get projects done all in the name of service. It has gone so far that some of our camporees have focused on Community Service and not on scout showing off their scout skills in competition.

 

Now don't get me wrong I think Community Service is important and has it place in scouting. However, some adults seem to think its the most important part of scouting.

 

Its my personal belief and experience that Community Service just happens if there is a well run/rounded program. If units are being led and ran by the youth, with proper guidance from their adult advisors(Scout Masters and Assistant Scout Masters), service will just happen. After all every advancement rank requires some type of community service.

 

 

[Kudu]

Gary_Miller writes:

 

It seems that some units are placing way too much emphasis ... on Community Service and not on scouting skills and getting out in the woods doing scouting.

 

Some units, Gary?

 

For the next five or six years Community Service will be the theme of our CSE's newest national anti-Scoutcraft campaign: "Prepared. For Life:"

 

As we move into this second century we have the opportunity to insure that America's young people are indeed, now get these words because starting today--because I'm announcing it in Philadelphia--our new theme going forward for at least the next five or six years will be Prepared--period--For Life.

 

When you think about it from a marketing and public relations point of view you have all kinds of potential. But we have the opportunity to insure that America's young people are indeed Prepared. For Life...

 

Did you know that there was a time when to be a First Class Scout--you guys didn't know this I bet--did you guys have to learn how to catch a runaway horse to be a First Class Scout?

 

When was the last time you saw a runaway horse? [audience response: "Tuesday"] Tuesday? Whoa! OK. Oh, that's right! This is Amish country, isn't it? [but then without missing a beat he returns to his anti-Scouting skills theme] So what do we mean by being Prepared For Life: Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill!

 

Yours at 300 feet,

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net

 

[Gary_Miller]

Kudu, I was trying to be nice.

 

"Prepared For Life", there is no better way to prepare a young man for life than to give him some scout-craft skills. There's nothing better that will give the a YM the ability to think through problems. While we may rely on computer technology to do many things in life, there is still a need for hard hands on labor of industry.

 

"So what do we mean by being Prepared For Life: Obviously we don't have to learn how to catch a runaway horse anymore. That's not an important skill!" OK I'll give the CSE this one. So lets teach them how to change the oil, plugs, tires, brakes, etc. maybe even how to replace and engine or transmission on ones car. Not everyone is going to make enough money to pay a mechanic to do this for them.

[Beavah]

 

But again I see out culture becoming more and more of a ' ME ME ME ME ME ME! Culture.

 

Horse hockey. Turn off da boob tube and go out and smell da flowers.

 

From the American Enterprise Institute:

 

"Charitable giving has generally risen faster than the growth of the American economy for more than half a century. Correcting for inflation and population changes, GDP per person in America has risen over the past 50 years by about 150 percent, while charitable giving per person has risen by about 190 percent."

 

In other words, the Americans of today are more generous with their money and less "Me me me!" than ever before.

 

As for volunteerism, it's young folks who are just startin' out in work who quite naturally volunteer the least, followed by da old folks over 65. And if yeh correct for those in da armed forces serving abroad, I suspect the young people do better. That's right, our retirees are among the least generous in their volunteer time.

 

So I think da evidence is that Americans as a whole are less "Me me me" than ever. In fact, we're a strong, generous, compassionate nation.

 

Beavah

 

[Old_OX_Eagle83]

Your cant do list is the fabrication of lazy leaders who do believe in the program or the scouts. There are two choices here. You can either encourage the current adult leaders to get up off their duffs, and pull their heads out of their rears, or find parents who believe in the program and scouts. Welcome back to Scouting, and good luck, those boys clearly need you.

[Eagle92]

Beavah,

 

If memory serves, one of the organizations that tracks charitble giving, maybe even the same one you cite, stated a few years back that it's the older population that is doign the chartible giving, not the 20-30 something crowd. Would you mind posting links as I am really interested in this topic.

 

Kudu and GM

As for service projects, especially the Eagle Service Project, I think they are important and don't think of them as a pain. I veiw the ESP as the culmination of the trail, applying what they have learned through the years.

 

As for the new 'corporate brand logo" it is insane. Why couldn't they keep it simple "Be Prepared." It has worked since 1907.

[perdidochas]

According to the BLS, the volunteer rate is highest for the 35-44 and 45-54 ages (32.2 and 30.3 in 2010), a little lower for 55-64 (27.2) and close to tied for 25-34 (22.3) and 65 and older (23.6), and lowest for 16-24 (21.9). The overall population 16 and over volunteers at 26.3%.

 

 

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/volun.nr0.htm

 

 

In general, I agree with Beavah. This is a compassionate generous nation.

[Beavah]

I pulled da American Enterprise Institute stuff from this article in their journal:

 

http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers

 

If you're lookin' at charitable giving by age, yeh have to be careful, eh? Most of the stuff I've seen comes from government sources and is based in part on tax returns. That's bad stats for sure, eh? Guaranteed to underestimate the gifts of the young (who are the least likely to itemize and declare charitable contributions on their taxes), and da least likely to be in stable work positions from which to answer Bureau of Labor Statistics or other pollster questionnaires.

 

I think it's also quite natural for young folks who are strugglin' to pay what have become outrageous costs for education, and who are also tryin' to save up for a house or to start a family or try to build an education fund for their kids to give less. In a lot of ways, our own family is our first charitable obligation, eh?

 

Beavah