Poor guidance = Dull program = fewer scouts

[BadenP]

Well said Beavah. I have read references to the old and new boy scout which I think is a little misleading, the reality is, on the average, that the boy scouts of the 21st century are doing much less outdoor activity skills, there has been a definite downplay of the outdoor skills which are being replaced with more classroom like activities. You can see that for yourself in the new badges that have been released reflect more academic pursuits. In the training of Boy Scout leaders there is a definite decrease in the outdoor skills, and WB21C which used to be a boy scout leader only advanced training has become an all inclusive watered down management training seminar whose value is highly questionable. The results are fairly obvious we are losing Boy Scouts at an incredible rate, especially this last decade.

 

IMHO the problem is not so much that kids have so radically changed but that we as adults have with our cushy urban centered entertainment centers with surroundsound home theaters, high tech 24/7 communication texter twitters many have become less and less motivated to leave all that behind to explore the outdoors with their troops or even their own families so what do you expect happens to the program. Even though I am now just the CC/COR for my crew I am thankful every day when I see the enthusiasm in the faces of those teens as they plan and execute their next outing and having the opportunity to see what I helped to create over nine years ago is still geting bigger and growing stronger every year. I still have the opportunity to go along on these great times whenever I like, you can't ask for anything better than that. I would love to see the boy scout program get back to that same level of excitement and fun because it becomes so infectious among all the youth and adults involved. That will NEVER happen if those in power continue to think boy scouting should be more of an academic venture.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[Beavah]

Another fiction is that Scouting has 100 pages of rules and regulations.

 

I think my old copy of the Rules & Regulations of the BSA is only about 26 pages, eh? But that's not what we're talkin' about here. We're talkin' about the various guidebooks that are treated as regulations by the folks CricketEagle is commenting on.

 

For example, I count 89 page links in da online G2SS. Some of da forms of course are multiple print pages. But if yeh look at the print version it's only 65 print pages.

 

Then yeh dig a bit further and yeh realize that it references a variety of other documents and resources. SSD/SA, Aquatics Supervision: Swimming and Aquatics Supervision: Paddle Craft and Cub Scout Aquatics Supervisor and Snorkeling Safety and BALOO and Project COPE and Climbing/Rappeling National Standards and a link to additional caving guidance.

 

Then yeh add in other things that get treated as regulations by some folks, like da Advancement Committee Policies & Procedures or the Insignia Guide (30-some and 50-some pages respectively). Then yeh get councils that generate local rules or paperwork.

 

Yep, I agree. 100 pages is a fiction. We have way more than that, even before we get to da folks who just make stuff up.

 

Beavah

 

[CricketEagle]

Beavah nailed it regarding the regulations.

 

The cross references in BSA and all the various sources cited make my head spin. I deal with government regulations each day (OSHA, MSHA, multiple states, and a slew of companies). I can usually find the answer to questions in those regulations fairly fast. I am a by the book person when it comes to safety, but that book better be clearly written and make sense. (Note here, I will admit that you would be amazed at the stupid things adults do to violate safety rules on a daily basis)

 

But in my mostly rural council, just try and find a paddle craft safety class. The neighboring big city council only does these classes once a year. They always happen at the same time I go with the scouts to camp!

 

In looking hard at the paddle craft classes, there is NOTHING new here. It is the same basic common sense pre-trip training my scoutmasters gave to me as a boy. They gave us hours of training before sticking us in a canoe on the river. However, some one felt it was necessary to require this to be taught and administered by BSA...I smell lawyer stuff here. I wonder who screwed up and BSA felt required to write a new regulation.

 

I will overcome this all, but in the meantime.

 

Grrrrrr..(Now back to pushing paper for summer camp)

[FScouter]

There's regulations, and then there's "regulations". You want to take a bunch of Cub Scouts within a canoe down a big river with no PFDs and no experience and you'll probably find a regulation. So what? You'll find that nearly all the "regulations" are common sense and the lack of such being demonstrated by adults is what promts them.

 

Like Cricket says about paddle-craft, there is a "regulation" to do what has always been done anyway. The only ones affected are those with no common sense to start with.

[Eamonn]

When it comes to all these rules and whatever?

I'm perfectly OK to have the buck stop here.

I don't ever go out of my way to break the rules but sometimes I have been known to turn a blind eye to them.

When our Scouts are out kayaking and want to stop and take a swim I don't follow everything that's in the Safe Swim Defence Plan, just parts of it.

Scouts have built towers that might be over the height limit, but not way over.

I've been woken up in the middle of the night by a Scout who is sick and trowing up, my first and foremost concern is for the Scout, not the G2SS.

 

Dull programs?

From what I've seen most of the programs that are dull are dull because of:

Lack of skills

Lack of imagination.

Lack of planning.

Poor communication.

Experts who are experts and try to bring 12 and 13 year old boys up to their level of expert.

Scout Leaders who want to talk too much and go on and on.

Doing the same old same old.

Going to the same place time and time again.

Adults forgetting that this is supposed to be fun.

Adults who want to bash everyone over the head with the rule books or rules that just never were and never will be. This is at times caused by poor training.

I care deeply for all the kids in my charge. I want them to have fun and learn stuff. Kids who get hurt or who are harmed are not having fun and learn the wrong stuff.

I don't need books of rules to make me do my job, books of rules don't make me care any more or any less.

Doing the right thing and knowing how to do it seems to have worked out OK for me.

Ea.

[neil_b]

I've had some of the same frustrations even though I've only been a scouter since about 2002 and never was a boy scout.

[Beavah]

Yah, what Eamonn said!

 

Folks who want to take cubs down Class V rapids in open canoes without PFDs aren't affected by any regulations since they're not reading 'em anyways. Besides, we all know they're a fiction.

 

Really, da issue is with those who lack experience. Experienced folks behave da way Eamonn does, eh? Yeh understand how kids behave and how an activity works and yeh just apply your experience to keep it safe.

 

Inexperienced folks are apt to do one of two things. On the one hand, they may just launch without understanding the risks (usually because they've done it themselves without kids and don't realize kids are different, or they've done it before but don't recognize conditions are different, or they have alcohol or testosterone poisoning). On the other hand, they may just prohibit things because they don't understand da real risks.

 

In scouting yeh see both, but da latter seem to be far more common, eh? Just prohibiting, restricting, or overregulating because of fear of somethin' that they don't understand. Often MCs and district folks do this more than SMs. Sometimes Irving making a general rule without considering local differences. Sometimes it's just irrational fear, like laser tag.

 

I think that's what Cricket is talkin' about.

 

Beavah

[Basementdweller]

Cricket.....look beyond your council for training.......

 

I leave my council and district on a regular basis chasing the training I need or required to have.

 

 

I find it an interesting contradiction blaming the leaders for a poor program when the program is supposed to be youth led. We are coming up on our yearly planning meeting......So do YOU as leaders, add to the planning, such as a new camp site or activity.......I have found the scouts I serve generally have very limited experiences, or imagination to broaden possible activity choices.

 

We let the scouts create their possible activities list.....then we add some fresh ideas.

 

the scouts make the final decision.

 

 

[CricketEagle]

Basementdweller,

 

I am with you. Although I would like to include the boys in "SOME" aspects of the planning, it often is above thier skill levels. Yes, I am struggling with a committee member who thinks a boy led troop means that boys should do the majority of the planning. I am from the school that the adults set up the program, and then let the boys lead individual tasks. Otherwise nothing gets done. Herding cats is the best phrase. Again when they get to the higher ranks, I expect them to be able to do more of the planning like gathering costs, some of the communication. (I would expect more if they were Eagles, but they are mostly 1st class)

 

However here is a classic problem I am having:

 

The boys mentioned they would like to do some Whitewater. I did as a boy and in my 20's.

 

I have asked them to go through the various scout safety guides so they understand the process and the requirements. Although I am really doing that seperately to back them up. They don't have to know that.

 

It is too much for them to plan on there own. As it takes a series of trips to get up to speed on the skills needed. It is more of a year long program that needs to be laid out to do such a trip.

 

I spend several hours last night trying to locate the needed classes for myself, but had to give up when the storms came through. I am even searching in a 4 state area.

 

Darn hard to find that training to satisfy BSA rules. Keep in mind here I am a person who has hundred of miles Whitewater canoeing and rafting.

 

It has been years, and I am willing to do the training. But I have to locate it and then find the time.

 

The next step is dealing with the one committe member that thinks I should be doing no planning. It should be up to the boys.

[OldGreyEagle]

I can see you doing all the planning at first. You start by explaining to the boys what you will do, then you demonstrate to the boys how its done, and you may do that a few times to be sure the youth have down what needs to be done and the reasons for it, how its done and then perhaps you could delegate some of the easier tasks to the ones who are catching on. You know, guiding them through the process, taking a step in the larger overall plan.

 

Maybe do this for a year, each time explaining what planning requires, what the steps are for putting together an event, showing them how its done and letting them take on the responsibility of some tasks, all with your oversight of course. In about a year or so, perhaps you could suggest that they try planning an event themselves to see if progress was made. Make it a small event for the first one and then increase the size

 

(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

[Eagle92]

Cricket,

 

Planning is NOT above the ability of older scouts, it is just that now a days kids or so use to being told what to do, and if they do plan something being told "NO, we are doing it this way...., that most kids either do no do this or give up. If the PLC I was in could schedule a year's worth of activities using 16 different school calendars, IT CAN BE DONE!

 

Ok off my soap box.

 

What you may want to do is once the PLC makes a decision, utilize the SPL and older scouts, if you got a venture patrol use them, to float ideas, brainstorm, and GUIDE them through some preliminary planning process. Don't tell them what to do, ASK THEM QUESTIONS AND MAKE THEM THINK OF RESPONSES (caps for emphasis, not shouting).

 

As for the year's worth of prepping, what is the problem with that? When I went to Canada, it was an 18-24 month process. Since we formed a separate troop for the occasion, we had a few meetings during that time, lots of fundraisers, and 3-4 weekends to go over canoeing skills. We covered and reviewed a lot of information: first aid, camping, cooking, and most importantly CANOEING, or as French Canadian brother Scouts said "CANUTE" (SP)

 

Other major trips also require a lot of prep. Philmont, N Tier, etc.

 

Give your scout a chance and you'd be surprised.

[Basementdweller]

Thanks for chiming in eagle and oge.......

 

I was thinking that his troop was more adult led than he was admitting to himself. It is really difficult to watch them muddle thru the process.... The planning takes way to long.

 

 

[CricketEagle]

Old Grey and Basement:

 

It sounds as if I not explained myself well on this:

Two issues here (competing forces):

 

Boy Led (but adult guided): The boys have not had that "Intermeaditate" step of seeing an adult or older scout plan something from start to finish. They are still in the stage of needing someone to shell out a program to teach them leadership skills. Our troop is current very heavy on the younger scouts. Very few older boys. In the new fancy scout language they are still in the E and D phases of teaching them "planning". (Explain and Demonstrate of EDGE, with some guiding going on).

 

Yes it take at more than a year to put together a program, but it is my job and I am happy to do that. 18 months ahead is my normal calender time frame. My frustration with that is locating the "training" and it's timing.

 

Back to the scouts: It is painfull to watch them "muddle", but we have to step in once in a while to give them some guidance. (There has been recent improvement with the boys on that. As they are adjusting to more than a dozen incoming new scouts, keeping them occupied is a task).

 

However, I can't let the older boys "muddle" too much as there needs to be a solid program for the younger scouts. It is even harder to allow them to muddle when new parents witness this and don't understand the process going on. (I'll handle the parents. As it is an education for them as well).

 

Part of the learning process for the older boys is to "allow" them the fail once in a while. It is a good learning tool. However that failure should not effect the overall program the young boys see.

 

I have some committe forces that want a nearly 100% boy led troop. (Personally I think that is a near fiction). That might work for a while, but I am not sure of it. The troop tried that for a while, but is now pulling back some. The SM and ASM's who have to deal with this are the forces pushing to a middle of the road solution as we see the effects...The same forces that want the nearly 100% boy led are also the "You can't do that crowd". That 100% they want the boys to take over much of of the planning. THIS INCLUDES ALMOST NO ASSITANCE IN PLANNING. Sorry for the caps. But again, the "older" boys still are in the explain and demonstrate phase. Most older boys here are 13 to 14 year olds.

 

So now I am way off my original topic.

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>So do YOU as leaders, add to the planning, such as a new camp site or activity.......I have found the scouts I serve generally have very limited experiences, or imagination to broaden possible activity choices.

[OldGreyEagle]

What training do you refer to?

 

18 months is a realistic timeframe, you do need to have postive things happen to keep progress moving forward so yes, you (adults) have to help and do things I agree

 

Maybe the dull program is an over emphasis on having the boys plan, which they don't do, so the events are dull and so fewer scouts are the results. But if the boys dont know how to plan, then they can't be expected to plan and thats the rub, teaching them to plan while expanding the possibilities of events

 

PS

You can call me OGE, all my friends, and most of the people here, do(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)