Poor guidance = Dull program = fewer scouts

[CricketEagle]

New program issues

 

Hi all, I am a modestly older Eagle who recently joined a troop as my son progresses through the program. My family has been involved in scouting on and off since the 1940s. I openly admit I come from the perspective of the old school.

 

I am trying to play by the new program rules, but at times things parts of it leave me flabbergasted.

 

I have been struggling with aspects of the new program, or often newer leaders interpretations of rules and guidelines:

 

I have observed what I call the YOU CANT DO THAT ATTIDUDE of some adults in the program. I dont think this is a deliberate attitude. It is a result of ignorance, over protection and often the leaders own inexperience with the outdoors.

 

I think this attitude often results in a DULL program. A dull program means losing scouts.

 

Examples I have come across or had said to me by adults (some paraphrasing here):

 

leave no trace: means catch and release fishing only Huh? When did simple back country cleanliness and courtesy come to mean we cant eat what we catch. Wasnt that part of BPs original method? Yes conservation based fishing has it's part, but that does not mean abstaining from eating some of what we catch

 

You cant take Webelos swimming, Webelos cant do a 3 mile hike. Since when? Did anyone ever bother to read the rules? Swimming is not that hard to do especially in a guarded pool (yes I did the training, posted guards etc). Boys want to go out in the woods, get dirty. This is what attracts the boys and gets them into scouting. Without this, we are just babysitting.

 

Tenderfoots, 2nd and 1st class should not work on Merit badges. Okay, I agree they should not work on personal finance merit badge, but what about first aid, cooking, hiking and camping? Key BP program based merit badges. I think this attitude sets the boys back a full year or more. A few carefully placed merit badges gives the boys a since of accomplishment and a taste for future work.

 

To that end, the Guide to Safe Scouting needs to be totally redone into a CAN DO Guide.

 

Each subject should be simple with a clear A, B, C item list. The list should include what training and were to get it if needed. This would also help to cut down on the differing answers I have had from different councils and districts.

 

Just my 2 cents,anyone care to add to this?

Maybe we can get a nickel?

[FScouter]

Every program "rule" item you listed did not come from Scouting. Misguided and misinformed adults abound. You separate truth from misinformation by asking for the written documentaion that supports the statement.

 

The Guide to Safe Scouting would be 10,000 pages long if it listed all the "can-do" things.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Don't confuse the "new program" with "poor leadership." The things you mentioned aren't really part of the program, new or old.

 

Your standard response to this stuff needs to be, "can you show me where that policy is written?"

[CricketEagle]

Fscouter said:

"Every program "rule" item you listed did not come from Scouting. Misguided and misinformed adults abound. You separate truth from misinformation by asking for the written documentaion that supports the statement"

 

Twocubdad said"

"Your standard response to this stuff needs to be, "can you show me where that policy is written?""

 

Thanks, and yes I have gone that route before with some success. But it is exhausting to prove that a imaginary "rule" does not exist.

 

I have often discovered that the people "quoting" rules never actually read them. It is often a control issue, or someone's personal opinion.

 

I only wish there was a simple piece of paper I could use as an answer

 

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

You know what is sad?

 

There are alot of fools who need to believe those rules exist!

 

The population is getting bigger and bigger. Unfortunatly, so are the number adult people who light campfires with 3 gallons of gas, who bring a 18 pack of Bud because it's just no big deal, and who will ruin your whole troop if you just give them the chance!

 

[FScouter]

"But it is exhausting to prove that a imaginary "rule" does not exist."

 

No one need disprove someone else's misinformation. The burden in on the rule teller.

[Stosh]

"Would you please show me where in the BSA literature that is written?"

 

My standard question for anyone making up rules.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[CA_Scouter]

I vote CricketEagle for next Chief Scout Executive!

 

 

[Twocubdad]

"I only wish there was a simple piece of paper I could use as an answer."

 

How about a rolled-up newspaper?

 

 

[Stosh]

I believe in the BSA program as it existed 50 years ago. Yes, I go back that far.

 

I was a Lion Cub after 4 years of Cub Scouts. I never made it to Webelos. When I was old enough I went on a Boy Scout activity as a Cub Scout. We hiked 5 miles out to a wooded area where I started a fire, and cooked a steak, potatoes and warmed up in my mess kit a can of baked beans which I opened with my Scout knife. When I was done, I scoured out my mess kit with sand, wiped it out with grass, sterilized it over the fire, put the fire out and hiked 5 miles back into town. Because I was a stupid little Cub Scout, no one offered any help or guidance.

 

After 4 years of Boy Scouts I had attained the rank of 2nd Class Scout and earned one merit badge, stamp collecting. I then quit and went on to other more interesting activities. My "patrol" from scouting (we all quit as a group) continued to camp until we got through high school and then went our separate ways.

 

After 50 years I still camp, canoe, kayak, hike, bike, fish, hunt and totally enjoy the outdoors. I have been to the BWCA 4 times, Philmont, camped in 6 different Scout camps and helped a lot of boys get through Scouting. I was released as SM from my last troop because I expected too much leadership from my boys. We were right in the middle of Harcourt's patrol method training at the time. Because I am being black-balled from scouting, instead of spending all three of my weeks of vacation with scout activities, (summer camp and Jambo last summer), this year I have a camping trip planned for Yellowstone and another to Virginia. I'm also looking into the possibility of Isle Royale if I have enough time. Next summer it's on the agenda to kayak in Alaska. They say the Misty Fjords are worth the effort.

 

Modern BSA with all of its rules and regulations have pretty much taken the fun out of the program even for me. While I enjoyed working with youth over the past 40 years, it's time to be a wee bit selfish and get in on all the things BSA has kept me from doing. This year with the high water on the Mississippi, I scooted my kayak out over the ice until I got open water and then went back into the back waters where I saw for the first time a rookery of 75-100 nesting herons and egrets. Try drifting into a migrating flock of Tundra Swans with bunch of Boy Scouts sometime. Like that will ever happen in my lifetime. Last Christmas I kayaked the Everglades. In whitewater rapids where kayakers were required to have cockpit skirts and helmets, I soloed an 18' canoe. What a rush!

 

After 56 years of being outdoors, I just might get used to being "retired" from the adventure of scouting. When I reach the "you can't do that attitude" it'll be from by body telling me I'm too old for such foolishness.... Too bad Scouts can't have bucket lists....

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[Eagledad]

Being the person of knowledge can wear one down, but if you are consistant, you will build a trust amoung your group. Learn your sources and display them as you all the other to show their ignorance. This forum is a good place to learn the sources to many questions, you can pick through the replies to get what you need.

 

I am not sure what you mean by old and new program, but I do understand the frustrations of changes in the program since I was a scout in the 60s and 70s. Sadly, times have changed, but that is no excuse to water down the program more than it has to. The troop I was the adult leader of had far more adventure than the troop I grew up in. Your scouts and their parents will respect you more and more as you combine a bit of the old and new.

 

I wish you the best of luck and please stay in touch so we all can enjoy your experience.

 

I love this scoutuing stuff.

 

Barry

[BadenP]

Cricket

 

I think the attitude you see in todays scouting comes more from a new generation of SM's who grew up with the urban scouting program, are really not into or trained in the skills of the outdoor program, nor do they care to be. They look for any excuses in the BSA literature not to try more outdoor activities. Case in point, there is a local troop to me where the SM and ASM's are computer programmers and who really dislike camping. When they do go camping they go to a KOA campground and stay in cabins, the meals are cooked and served to them, there are heated showers, a heated pool, etc. The boys concentrate on computers and robotics and other high tech or science MB's almost exclusively. As far as the T-2-F requirements go they are skated through with minimal effort, altering the requirements, and giving them little training. The troop has shrunk to six active boys and has had no Eagles for five years.

 

There are several other troops in my district and council adopting this style of scouting, which seems to correspond with the new direction Mazzuca wants to move boy scouts. However the good thing is all of these troops are very small, 10 and less.

It is my hope that eventually even National will see that the further you get away from scoutings roots the membership will continue to decline. It is not that the boys do not want to go camping and learn outdoor skills it is that they do not have the leaders that are adequately trained or even desire to show them how much fun it can be.

[desertrat77]

CricketEagle,

 

As an "more than modestly" older Eagle who also took a long break from Scouting, I came back a few years ago and found myself making many of the observations you articulated.

 

The scouting movement overall has moved away from adventure, and fun. More indoors, more homework, more rules. Indeed, it equals a dull program.

 

The difficulty is that there are many adults who agree with the dull program and think it's swell. The scouts, now and yesteryear, are up for the challenge, responsibility, and the adventure. But the tone of the program is often dictated by the adults who don't like the outdoors, don't like to swim, don't like rugged events, and would rather listen to powerpoint presentations in the camp mess hall all day than step outside and take a five mile hike.

 

We need more scouters with your vision and experience. It's worth the effort. Thanks for taking this on!

[Beavah]

There are alot of fools who need to believe those rules exist! The population is getting bigger and bigger. Unfortunatly, so are the number adult people who light campfires with 3 gallons of gas, who bring a 18 pack of Bud because it's just no big deal, and who will ruin your whole troop if you just give them the chance!

 

Balderdash.

 

Our population in Scoutin' has declined, and I don't see any more of this sort of thing now than I did 30 years ago. In fact, to be honest, I see a lot less of it.

 

There's not a real need for more regulation. There's just an odd sort of fear out there that creates da perceived need for more regulation. And, well, there's a need for executives to generate and respond to a perceived need for regulation because it justifies their salary .

 

I mostly see what BadenP and Cricket and others do, eh? We have a lot of beginners out there, and just like beginner swimmers cling to anything that floats, beginners at other things cling to rules and regulations. Gives 'em a sense of comfort and confidence in da scary water, even if it's only a wading pool. Unfortunately it's easier to memorize da rule than actually put in the effort to go out and learn how to do somethin' well, eh? So by and large folks that know how to do, do, and those that don't know how to do make up a rule.

 

Kids aren't as fearful, and by and large even when they're afraid they're willin' to go out an try. Ever watch 'em learning how to skateboard? Ouch! Too hard for my old bones. They're willin' to put in da effort to get good at things, eh? As a result, they don't have much time or patience for memorizin' 100 pages of rules and regulations. Booorrrriiiinnnng! Yeh have a few workin' rules and pay more attention when it gets scary, is all.

 

So I don't think we need to worry about tryin' to regulate da mythical leader who buys 10 lbs of magnesium shavings for da fire. He's a fiction, and even if he weren't da fellow wouldn't read the regulations anyways. What we have to is to get more adults out in da field and comfortable with the real capabilities of kids so they aren't so darn fearful of hobgoblins.

 

That way they won't feel da need to cling desperately to every phrase in G2SS... real, or made up!

 

Beavah

 

[FScouter]

Another fiction is that Scouting has 100 pages of rules and regulations.