Cub Scouting Hurting Boy Scouting?

[acco40]

For a few years we had a "relaxing" August camping trip the boys liked. It was on a special area at a state park on Lake Huron (not available to the public). It was rustic but nice. We camped and swam. We invited Webelos dens to camp with us.

 

The first thing I asked the Webelos parents was did they want to camp "side by side" - i.e. "cub scout rule" - with the troop or would they like to camp as part of the troop? If part of the troop, then "boy scout rules" would apply.

 

They almost always stated the latter. Okay, so I would (or the SPL) introduce them to the concept of patrols, the buddy system and a quick safe swim defense overview.

 

Well, a half mile walk away or so was the state park facilities (i.e. indoor plumbing) and while we didn't use it, some of the Cub Scout families did. I noticed one Cub Scout heading off away from the camp site and asked him where he was going. To the bathroom he stated. Where was your buddy I asked? I don't need one, my dad said it was okay. Well, I didn't want to start a family argument - I could see the dad glaring at me as he told me it was okay. A half hour later the Cub Scout returned to camp.

 

Fast forward to the next day and I had the SPL assemble the boys before a quick walk (5 minutes) down to the lake. Well guess who was missing? The Cubs parents began to panic. I quietly assigned my two oldest Scouts to go down to the lake and check for bodies! I then asked the boys when was the last time this particular Scout was seen. After a few minutes, we sent out some other boys to look for him. Turns out, the boys found another troop and followed them to their camp site thinking it was our troop. We got him back about 30 minutes later. All were relieved but I had another discussion about the buddy system and why we used it. This time, I didn't get any grief from the parents!

[UCEagle72]

I wonder ... back in the olden days, Webelos was a three-month program. You were a Lion before that.

 

Maybe we have extended Webelos too long?

[BadenP]

UC Eagle

 

I agree with you two years is too long for Webelos. To answer an earlier post from Scoutlass a weak Webelos program is a problem because most packs run that program the same way as the do Tiger, Wolf, and Bear and usually with the same leaders all the way through. That IMO is the real reason Webelos are not going on to boy scouts, they have had the same person who in all honesty has taught them the same way for five years and they are just plain bored with it all.

 

If Webelos is truly going to be a transitioning point to boy scouts then every Webelos den should get a new leader, preferably male to coincide with boy scouts, and the program needs to be very different and unique from what they have experienced up to this point in Cubs. If the pack does not do that than those boys will NOT be ready to move into a troop, and those boys will drop out, in that scenario then that pack has indeed hurt boy scouting.

[JMHawkins]

Maybe we have extended Webelos too long?

 

As a Pack CC, I'm seeing a lot of burnout in both the Cub Scouts and the adults towards the end of the first year Webelos program. And it's not just limited to our Pack, I see it in other Packs too. I don't know if it's specifically Webelos, or if it's the whole thing from Tigers on up, but there's definitely a burnout factor going on.

 

And then theres:

 

If it is done correctly, the First Class First Year emphasis can help retention...

 

Now, that "if it's done correctly" caveat can apply to almost anything. e.g. Boy Scouting, if done correctly... But the challenge I see with the FCFY is that it's encouraging the Webeloization of the boy's first year in Boy Scouts. I mentioned a Trail to First Class program that had the boys sittin' around being lectured about first aid (and getting their books signed off by the "instructor" for demonstrating skills that they did not in fact demonstrate or even practice - BTW, this has already caused one problem in our Troop as a boy was confused about why we were going over the material with him again and imagined he was being treated unfairly since "it was already signed off."). Not a bandage or splint in sight for that class either. Sad, taking something that should be a huge excitement factor for the boys and turning it into Saturday Dentention Class.

 

Is that the way it's supposed to be? Is that how the FCFY folks want it to be? Dunno - but that's how it's getting implemented. Ultimately, humans are very adept at optimizing their behavior to achieves specified goals. If the dictate comes down that boys should reach FC in 12 months, troops will tend to do what it takes - including pencil whipping the requirements - to meet that objective. It's human nature, and anyone in an organizational leadership position should understant that. You have to be exceptionally careful with the objectives you set for your org, and with the metrics you gather, because your folks will try to achieve them and are likely to sacrifice other objectives to do so.

 

I'd be curious - any comparison on retention stats for Rank Advancement vs Nights Camping?

 

 

 

[UCEagle72]

Baden --

 

I think I need to agree -- the advancement of DLs could well be part of the problem. We had "Den Mothers" until we reached Webelos, then we suddenly had a "man" who took care of us in Webelos -- and even the Den Mothers/Leaders stayed with a particular program, and basically became experts in how to get the most out of a Cubs time as a Bear or Wolf. So each year, you had a new face, a new adult to interact with -- much like school.

 

As I look at burn-out in Cubs, I think the real drop point is the start of Webelos ... by this time, boys have been in the program 3 years normally, and it seems to match the drop of interest we see in Scouts after 14 (not to mention the start of the "fumes problem").

 

Three years for us was Lions - and then entering Webelos for that three month period.

 

And think - we now have a pilot running with "Lions" that are now in kindergarten! So they will be in the program 4 years by the time they reach Webelos, and two more years there. Hmmmmm ... are we going the right way?

 

 

 

[BadenP]

UC

 

I was a WDL during the transition from a one year to a two year program and I can tell you that is when the trouble began. I made sure with my dens that especially in the second year that they had interactions with three other troops in my area so when they graduated they were already set to go and welcomed into the troop of their choice where they knew many of the boys already. The ten boys I had over that time ALL went into boy scouts 2 became Star, 3 became Life, and 5 were awarded Eagle, and all ten boys and their parents said to me that they only got as far as they did because of their experiences in Webelos really preparing them for the troop. So if done right it does work and works well. It is not the Webelos program that is the problem it is the way the WDL delivers it or in many cases does not deliver it to the boys. At all five ECOH's I attended all five boys personally thanked me for their Webelos experience and presented me with an Eagle lapel pin, those are the kind of scouting experiences you never forget.

[ScoutLass]

I don't think the gender of the WDL/SM as any bearing. It's about the quality of the individual, not the gender. There are excellent female SMs out there.

[UCEagle72]

ScoutLass --

 

It was not a gender statement, just a reality statement ... there were a few male DLs in those days, but women, at the time, were not allowed to be WDLs, CM, ACMs, etc.