Cub Scouting Hurting Boy Scouting?

[perdidochas]

AK wrote:

This year, as I have a foot in both Pack and Troop I see extremely different programs. They almost seem unrelated. If Cub Scouting numbers are so high..... What is Boy Scouting doing wrong to loose these boys?

 

From where I stand, the leap from cub to boy scouting is too high for all but the most resourceful/dedicated parents.

 

 

 

I think the problem is that Cub Scouting is babying the boys too long, instead of slowly getting them ready for independence. To blame that on Boy Scouting is to seek to water down Boy Scouts. I think Cub Scout leaders (especially Webelos leaders) need to up their game.

 

As somebody that had a foot in both Pack and Troop for the last year, I didn't see that the losses were on the resourcefulness/dedication of the parent. I basically saw the boys that stopped simply lost interest when they weren't catered to every second, as they were in Cubs. I know I lost a few as Webelos II leader for that reason. We did lose another that either he or his mother weren't ready for independence--I can see either one, as the mother did an awful lot for the boy. In addition, he was a younger Scout--only 10 when he would have crossed over.

[perdidochas]

BD,

 

Exactly. I guess that's partly why my sons weren't in shock on their first Boy Scout campout. They had been helping with setting up the tent/unloading gear, and taking all of it down. If anything, my oldest thought Boy Scout Camping was easier, because Boy Scouts camp for two nights, which makes the setup and takedown separated by time.

[AKdenldr]

Okay now the discussion has gone from 'cub leader burnout' to cub leaders need to 'up their game'?

 

Wow, anyone else see the irony in this?

 

Seems like "blame the other volunteers" to me.

 

Again, my question is when cub scouting brings such a large pool of potential recruits to the boy scout program, why is the boy scout program failing to recruit and retain?

 

-AK

 

[Basementdweller]

AK

 

I am the Webelos Den leader and an Assistant Scout Master.

 

I am not blaming anyone, It is simply a statement of what I see.

 

When I get a fresh batch of webelos, I don't expect them to know much. But it is my job as Their den leader to teach them to become more self reliant.

 

We have boys that arrive on a troop campout for the first time, never having fried an egg or washed a dish......we had a patrol that didn't eat dinner till 8pm one campout because they were too busy playing.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[perdidochas]

Actually, upping their game, IMHO, would lead to less burnout. The problem is that Cub leaders are working too hard. They need to be guiding the boys to work harder (in Webelos years, anyway). If Cub leaders were weaning the boys towards leading themselves, their workload is easier. I know I worked less hard with Webelos than I did with Tiger Cubs. Why? I assumed they could do for themselves, and they did.

 

In terms of why the losses? It's the same as with any other activity with kids--they try it out--if they don't like it, they do something else. My boys tried baseball. It wasn't their thing. A lot of other kids did the same. There were about 10 U-8 Baseball teams in the league. By U-14, there are only 4. Why? Boys realize what they are really interested in.

 

 

[Eagledad]

 

I did a little research on the losses of first year scouts several years ago because I wanted to know if the changes National made around 1990 to improve the first year loses were working. Nothing changed from the program before 1990 to after, at least in loses of first year scouts. But, during the research, I also learned that more scouts leave the BSA during their first year of scouting than any other age and it has always been that way. The reason is because the sudden independence of boy scouting is more than a lot of boys can handle at that age and maturity. So it is not something new with todays generation of parents. Its been that way since at least the 1960s as far as I could find.

 

I don't count this on the question of; is cub scouts hurting boy scouting, because I look at number of boys starting in cubs to the number of Webelos joining troops. The first year scout issue is a different problem and after my many years experince, I think is a troop problem, not cub. Oh the cubs could help a little, but the troop has the responsibility to take any new boy, whether they have previous cub experience or not. And as history shows, it has always been a problem. We figured that the leader burnout problem was the cause of 50% of Webelos not crossing over. That is a conservative number, but imagine if we could get just half of those scouts in a troop?

 

I do remember that the old Canadian Scouts (before their changes in 1990s) seem to do a pretty good job of gradually bringing boys up to speeds so that they were comfortable with independence when they reach the troop program. But, we would need to find an old-timer to tell us how well it worked.

 

Barry

 

[JMHawkins]

I also learned that more scouts leave the BSA during their first year of scouting than any other age and it has always been that way. The reason is because the sudden independence of boy scouting is more than a lot of boys can handle at that age and maturity.

 

Barry,

 

Is that a conclusion you found in your research, or one you came to? In either case, I'd really like to read the supporting evidence because it's a thoroughly plausible theory, but so is the exact opposite (that we're losing kids because the program is too boring/treats them too much like little kids). We all have our opinions on "how it outta be" but trying to find and make sense of real numbers would be great for me to understand what's really going on.

 

 

[Eagledad]

>>Barry,

 

Is that a conclusion you found in your research, or one you came to?

[Engineer61]

I doubt if Cub Scouting is *hurting* Boy Scouting...it's geared in a completely different way.

 

I recall my Scout's best friend when it came time to cross over...the friend decided that Boy Scouts was going to be too much busy work (MB's), and "slave labor" as he put it, for too little fun (camping). He decided to spend more time playing Youth Baseball.

 

I recall the parents giving a private sigh of relief.

 

My Scout by and large is bored with Scouting. He gets "up" for the trips, but hasn't completed a single MB since August (He's been fiddling with on of the Citizen MB's ... but that's about it). Does the service projects, etc. But there are times where Mom really has to drag him to them or meetings.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I wonder if encouragement from the dominant male force in his life would help a bit as it seems Scouting doesnt get praised much from that venue

[JMHawkins]

Actually that was the conclusion of the BSA and is their reason why they change the program 1990.

 

Interesting. The expansion of the Webelos program to include two years and more camping had already happened by 1990, so I'm not sure if BSA was really implementing solutions to the problem they identified (which might explain the lack of improvment in numbers you mentioned). If the problem really is that we're overwhelming the boys, are we maybe starting them too young? Maybe pushing advancement too fast?

 

One thing I've noticed is that the Trail To First Class seems to foster a sit-down classroom lecture style of teaching scoutcraft. This is absolutely a mistake and doesn't solve any problems while creating several of it's own. I watched a couple dozen scouts sit around listening to a guy lecture on first aid this weekend, at the end of which he signed them off in their books on the T21 First Aid requirements he'd "taught."

 

So where it says in the book to "Demostrate how to care for someone who is choking" (Tenderfoot 12a) he signed that they had completed this requirement (I saw this in our scouts books) even though none of those scouts stood up and demonstrated anything. They watched two recently-aged out scouts demonstrate something that was almost an approximation of something that vaguely resemlbed a Heimlich Maneuver (wrong grip, wrong stance), but they didn't do it themselves. About a third of the scouts in the class weren't really paying attention anyway.

 

Clearly "advancement" like that is not going to help the boys develop the confidence and abilities to be comfortable with the independence and self-responsibility inherent in an active outdoor-oriented (e.g. "real") scouting program.

 

I agree with your 6 month assessment - that seems like a better indicator than a year. A year is forever in a boy's world. By 6 months, he knows if he likes the activities, if he's made friends, and if there's more for him to do. I'm not sure he really cares what patch is sewed to his shirt so much. Yeah, it's nice, but I bet he cares more about feeling confident doing the job.

[bigbovine]

Interesting stuff. I didn't realize all the different thoughts on the subject. Just to make sure you understand, the boys really enjoyed the 1 year in WEBELOS before BoyScouts. They did however think it was for "little boys". But like I said, my boys are used to working and doing things on their own on the Farm. One thing I must say I really do not think is good is the Fast Track in Cubs to get boys to their Arrow Of Light. It seems more like a puppy mill to me. Almost as if a boy that doesn't get the AOL will not make it in scouts. All WEBELOS in our Pack got AOL but none of them really did anything to earn it in my opinion. Even my boys got it in under a year, and they did everything required. That was a result of the CM wanting to be sure all boys get their AOL. What do the kids learn from that? I realize that has more to do with leadership. As far as burnout, except for myself as ADL for 1 year, everyone else is dead tired of scouts and cannot wait for their boys to move up so they can step out. That is where I am now. No parents moving up to help in Scouts and a SM that seriously needs help. I am getting my qualifications squared away so I can help as ASM but that may not be enough. I hear about SM's that have beeen around for many years, but I assume they have plenty of ASM's to help. This guy has been alone for several years. He has had to rely on those from the Troop Committee to have his 2 deep leadership. After 5 months in this Troop, I am being asked by the SM if I would be interested in being the future SM(In about a year). I am very hesitant to do so, not because I am afraid, but I have a boy that will be Tiger age in 1 year. I have debated on that before now and have decided to stay with my original thoughts of children starting out and doing too much too young, and not letting him join till maybe WEBELOS. There is no way that I can be SM and Den Leader at the same time. There is no way to give proper time to both. Then add the fact that the current CM expects that I will want CM in 2 years because of my younger son. I already knew that wouldn't be possible before now and told him that I would be more than willing to stay on Pack Committee(Possibly in a permanant manner , since I plan on going nowhere, and I could be a stable source of information for future Cub Leaders.) That is were I satnd, I have nothing against Cub Scouts, I just seem to think kids at that young of an age are being pushed in too much.

[acco40]

Yes, the expectations for Boy Scouts are higher - they should be. I think the national council screwed up when they lowered that age for Boy Scouts (for membership numbers) and Cub Scouts. Going on your first campout as a 12 year old having finished 6th grade is quite different than having a boy go at the end of 5th grade.

 

Also, introducing 10 year olds to a troop that contains 15-17 year old boys is sure to drive the older boys away.

[Eamonn]

Not sure where or if this fits into the discussion?

 

Worked with a woman who had remarried.

Her son from her first marriage went through Cub Scouting and Boy Scouts, becoming an Eagle Scout.

When number two son from the second marriage came home wanting to join Cub Scouts, she offered to buy him a goldfish if he didn't join.

When we talked about this she said that there was no way she was going to go through all of that again.

The little guy took the goldfish, which went to goldfish Heaven a week or so later.

He never did join Scouts.

Ea.

[Engineer61]

OGE...

 

"I wonder if encouragement from the dominant male force in his life would help a bit as it seems Scouting doesnt get praised much from that venue."

 

Yeah, it probably would be a good thing if Scout's Dad worked on some Scout stuff over the summer break.