Cub Scouting Hurting Boy Scouting?

[bigbovine]

Was just reading a thread on "Hats and Handbags" and there was a reference at the end on the lower numbers in scouts today,

 

"Everyone seems to have different opinions as to why this is.

Some blame parents, video games, school sports the list seems endless.

Do we need to change?

If so what changes are needed?

Is Cub Scouting harming Boy Scouting?

There are a lot of things that I just don't understand. "

 

Something I have dwelled on since my teen years, I will call "Over Activity of Young Children" for a lack of a better term. I say this but then have to wonder if that is right. I always thought children did way too much organized activities. I've seen parents fight(Literally), children cry, and families play their kids in sports year round(That is not good for a young developing body). This would also count for other activities such as music, karate, etc. I didn't let my children do anything organized till this last year, thinking why not try it. I was so right in the Jr Pro Football(I'm sorry, I grew up on a farm, was cutting hay and driving the farm truck by 11, but these coaches are too rediculous with the stress they put on kids, It isn't the Pros), but felt Cub Scouts (WEBELOS) was alright. However, In the last few months I am starting to rethink the Cub Scouts again. I am starting to see the "Burnout" in Boy Scouts that I saw cousins, neices and nephews go through in sports. Not only that, Cub Scouts requires a whole lot more adult "hands on". That "hands on" can cut away at the available Adults for Boy Scouts, as well as burn out the adult. I am sorry, but just doing things together as a family (Vacation, Games, Fishing, Yard work, Garden, Farm work), while very physical and time consuming, doesn't seem to create burnout like 5 years in cub scouting. It may be because everyone is benefited by the activity at home. Do not get me wrong, I beleive everyone benefits from Cub Scouting. But something seems diferrent between Cub Scouts and a Child helping out around the Home. Maybe Cub Scouting isn't ment for these children. As a Boyscout, the boy is making his own decisions and developing a since of responsibility outside the home. Still adults are involved, but more af a guiding rolemodel, like I am to my younger boys at home. Am I off on this or does some of it make since. Sorry for the ramblin.

[Basementdweller]

I think a lot of things hurt scouting.....

 

Video games and electronics

Travel and Rec Sports

Boring program

Going from a Program that awards you for everything, to a program that rarely awards you.

Religion

Peer Pressure

The Gay issue

Scouting is uncool.....got this from a boy who plays flute in his schools band?!?????

 

We can blame a lot of things for decline in membership.......We, SM's, need to train the Boys to lead a program that they want.

 

[bigbovine]

I wasn't blaming anything in particular on the numbers in scouting, I was just wondering about the general impact of parents pushing their children at too young of an age. I used the title because I was thinking in this general direction already. Not that I think Cub Scouts is hurting Boy Scouts. I was just relating to the fact, that kids don't get to grow up to be kids anymore it seems. Schedules are too cramed and there isn't a whole lot of time. By the time they hit 12 or 13, they want something different to do. Thus the "Burnout". I have found personally that Scouting is well worth the time put in. It teaches many good things that can be carried on into the adult life, unlike many of the things that kids are doing now. I am just at a point that I am wondering what to do when my youngest comes of age for Cub Scouts. Whether or not I am active in the Boy Scouts, Cub will involve time away from my home. My other three seem to have done really well as just entering as WEBELOS and moving up to Scout, and I am wondering about the same for the younger one.

[resqman]

One son played sports. Practice couple times a week and a game on the weekend. Coaches encouraged the players to practice drills on their own time.

 

Other son joined scouts. 1 meeting a week. 1 pack meeting a month. Den leader enocuraged scouts to work on requirements on their own time. Always seem to be a lot of time between scout events as a Cub/Webelo where scouting was not on the kids mind.

 

As a Den leader, it was a lot of work to have an active program where the scouts were Doing instead of Listening/Watching an adult. Made the joke it is only one hr a week, per boy in the den. 8 scouts in the den only required 8 hours a week from the den leader.

 

Cub scout leadership is definitely burned out by the time the cubs crossover. The boys are ready for the new adventure of Boy Scouts. I think National, Council, District needs to push the Den Chief program more strongly to reduce leader burnout.

[neil_b]

I agree cub leaders get burnt out. In the old days cub leaders were moms and webelos on up was done by the men. Now more often it is the same people doing both.

 

I think program changes are also responsible. There was another thread where it was mentioned how much harder it used to be to become a first class scout because of the signaling requirement. If you go even further back the backpacking requirements used to be very stiff. Some troops may do a lot of backpacking and hiking while others do the minimum.

 

Boring merit badge clinics also make it easier for boys to advance while contributing to the couch potato side of today's Scouting.

 

But year-round kid sports is the biggest competition for Scouting I think. Sports are challenging, fun, and viewed as cool. Scouting is seen by a lot of boys and parents as geeky.

[evmori]

What I think is hurting Boy Scouts is the parents who expect Boy Scouts to be the same as Cub Scouts and hover like a nest of wasps and never let junior do anything on his own.

[Eagledad]

I've written about this several times over 12 or so years and yes you have hit the nail on the head, adult burnout in Cub Scouts hurts the Boy Scout numbers. Five years is asking too much of adult volunteers. Even four years is a lot. The first year is Tigers and that program alone requires four times more adult time per week than any other age group. The BSA has no business trying to include toddler age boys into a program designed for more mature boys. It verges on being a babysitter program except the parents still have to attend.

 

When you poll Den leaders and Cubs as I have done, you find that at least 50 of Den leaders who started at the Tiger or Wolf year are ready for a break by the end of their Bear year. These are adults who are not that excited about their responsibility in the program anymore and the result is a boring program, a boring Webelos program. Boys only look forward to the next year of scouts if their previous year gives them the enthusiasm to make the move. If the Webelos are boring, the boys think the Troop will be boring as well and the crossover numbers show it. I haven't seen the numbers in the last few years, but less than 50% of Webelos was crossing over to Troops. I can't see a reason why the number would change.

 

And its not the activities that are boring or sports taking the boys away like a lot of folks assume, its just that the adults are burned out. Not all of them of course, most of us here didnt loose that enthusiasm, but studies show that the average person is willing to give a volunteer program about 18 months before they need a break. The Cub program ask far more than that. How many of us have nearly got on our knees to beg a leader to stay just one more year.

 

When National made some major changes to Tigers in 2000 that required more of the adults time on a weekly basis instead of biweekly, a few of us predicted that the crossover numbers would fall as a result four years later and they did. What surprised me was that the Tigers to wolves numbers fell as well. The Wolf and Bear numbers were stable percentage wise, but I understand the first year Webelos started falling more than normal.

 

Cub Scouts has become too heavy and too complicated for the average adult and the intended vision. Its not a boy problem, its all about the adults because if the adults are excited, so are the scouts. You only need to talk and compare good dens with bad ones and you see a difference of attitude in the boys as far as their future of scouting..

 

Im not sure of the solution, I have proposed a few that I think would work like killing the Tiger program for a start. But big changes have far reaching effects that can be both positive and negative. I cant imagine National is blind to the numbers, so I just dont think they want to take such risk.

 

Barry

 

[OwntheNight]

As a DL with Scout son, I experienced the BURNOUT, and looked forward to the summer break, just to get my head clear and to prepare for the next 9 mos. I realized that I was doing every thing myself and wasn't sharing the wealth with anybody. When I became the DL for wolf son, I took shared leadership to heart, and began letting go of some of the responsibility, things couldn't be better now, the boys in the den get a different perspective from different leaders every week and look forward to den meetings.

 

As a CM now, I accept that kids have lives outside of Scouting, and I encourage them to play sports and stay active. The two can go hand in hand, not against each other. As we plan our events in Scouting, we try and do things the boys don't get to normally do, so that they are still interested and excited about Scouting. Burnout on the kid level is when they are doing the same things over and over each year, you know, the "Been there, Done That, got the tshirt" bit.

 

Would both of my sons like to sit around and play video games all day... You betcha. Do I still get resistance from them for going to Troop and Den meetings...Absolutely. But after a troop campout or Pack activity, they still tell me they had a blast, and can't wait for the next event.

 

"Maybe Cub Scouting isn't meant for these children"

I disagree, I think it absolutely is. Here's a prime example. Yesterday we were at Wolfson's end of season soccer party, I brought our stomprocket set up for the boys to mess with if they wanted to. When we got there, all the boys were out playing what? Soccer of course. After my boys set up the rocket launchers THEMSELVES, they proceeded to start making their own rockets and began launching them. After pizza and trophies, the other boys on the team saw my boys playing with the rockets and wanted to get involved with it. The boys that play soccer year round, were enthralled by the rockets and came over to me to ask me to make rockets for them. That was the their mentality, "What will you do for me?" My boys were the ones making the rockets,not me. My boys aren't so reliant on Mom and Dad doing everything for them, Scouting has helped them become more independent and self confident. They set everything up, they helped the other boys build the rockets. All I did was bring the supplies.Certainly made me proud to be a CM and an ASM.

 

The whole reason I got into Scouting as an adult, was because I'm selfish and wanted to spend more time with my kids. I didn't want to be a sideline parent, I want to be active in my kids' lives. I just wish more parents could see how fun it is to be involved, instead of just watching from the bleachers. Of course, it's pretty cool to work with a whole den of boys, and watching them grow up as well!

 

 

[perdidochas]

It's hard to say if Cub Scouting is hurting Boy Scouting. I can see how it could hurt, but I can also see how it helps.

[BadenP]

Interesting posts here, I find myself agreeing with basement and Ed. In addition I am one of the few here that firmly believe that parents should not be leaders for their kids from Tiger thru Eagle as IMO, most of them can not be truly objective about their own kids, plus the boys need to experience other leadership, instead of mommy and daddy riding their coat tails, to really grow from boys into men.

 

Cub Scouting does not hurt Boy Scouts, but what does hurt the program are helicopter parents who refuse to let their boys mature on their own and insist on being involved as scout leaders for their own boys from Tiger to Eagle. For my own two boys I was their leader only one time as a SM, however I made it a point NEVER to sign off on their requirements and had one of the ASM's do all of their SM conferences with them so there could never be any accusations of favoritism. Both my boys had a terrific time in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, and both made Eagle.

[Eamonn]

"Is Cub Scouting harming Boy Scouting?"

Who said that?

OK, it was me.

Some time back I was reading something on one of the world scouting web sites. I can't remember which one.

My take on what I thought it was trying to say was that in many places Cub Scouting has become such a large part of what is today seen as Scouting that Cub Scouting is over shadowing Scouts or Boy Scouts as we have here in the USA.

When Lord Baden Powell started Boy Scouts he wasn't aiming it at younger boys and from what I have read he wasn't that keen on Cub Scouting even when it got hold in the UK.

I never really gave or have given much thought to the idea of Leader burn out. I was thinking about it more from the way I think Boys of Scout age might see it.

Of course it's been a very long time since I was a boy!

 

I was a Cub in England back in the 1960's and have at different times been involved with Cub Scouting.

I'm not in any way anti Cub Scouting.

I really do think it provides younger boys with a wonderful outlet for all the energy they have and they do learn a lot.

Having said that I'm not so sure that the aim of preparing these young Lads to become Boy Scouts is really true?

Looking back, I remember that when I was a Cub. It was a weekly activity with very little time spent outdoors.

Sometime around the early to mid 1970'S in England things changed, not only did Wolf Cubs become Cub Scouts and a lot of the Jungle Book ideas get put on the back burner, but Cub Scouts started to go camping.

Cub Scout camping entailed a lot of hard work for the adults. Who did everything from putting up and taking down the tents to doing all the food prep. Leaving the little guys lots of time for fun and games.

I was just starting out as a Scout Leader around this time and the little guys found it really hard to adapt from the idea that camping wasn't just sleeping in a tent, but being part of a Patrol that was trying hard to be as self sufficient as possible.

The number of boys who didn't stay in Boy Scouts went up.

 

Sometime about ten or fifteen years back here in the States, it seems that some Councils seen that Cub Scouts could bring in much needed revenue to Council ran camp sites.

We seen a lot of new Cub World type sites spring up and Cub Scout resident camp became something that many of us now see as normal.

The Council I'm part of has a resident Cub Scout Camp, about half a mile from the Boy Scout Camp.

Cub Scouts can attend resident camp as Wolves on up.

I think that in some ways this takes away a lot of the excitement of going to Scout Camp and I can see why a lot of Scouts who by the age of 13 or 14 feel that they have been there, done that and already have a ton of t-shirts.

They have their own BB and archery range.

 

Most Councils couldn't survive today without Cub Scouts they bring in a lot of money and a lot of adult support.

Still I wonder if expecting a Lad to remain through Cub Scouting all the way until he is 18 or 21 is really realistic?

A good many of the Troops in the area where I live are not large. A Troop with over 30 youth members is thought of as being big. Of this 30 there is a handful of older Scouts who once they can drive and get a car, are irregular in their attendance and if they haven't already got their Eagle are just hanging around till they do. If they have got their Eagle they like to pop in to the Troop every now and then and maybe attend OA activities.

Every year the Troops get a lot of cross overs. Of these about half are gone before summer camp and very few of whats left make it to the three year mark.

Still the program offered is focused on these younger boys with the 14 and 15 year olds being offered the same old same old.

Nearly all the SM's in our area have been around for a very long time, when the little guys cross over a good many of their dads tag along. Scouting becomes a Father and son activity. The sad thing is that when dad is unable to attend something the son isn't there either. The life span of most of these new leaders isn't that long.

While of course I'll never know. I do wonder what might happen if Scouts were to be just a stand alone activity for kids starting at 11?

I wonder if the image of what we are might change if we didn't have the cute little Lads around?

Ea.

[qwazse]

I wonder if Cub Scouts makes us lazy at recruiting?

 

Our pack is very well run, graduates about 6 - 12 Webelos every year. This year they all crossed over to a different troop! Some folks on our committee were really wrankled because they thought we were "entitled" to those boys.

 

Meanwhile, us ASM's noticed the boys who are sticking with the program were the ones recruited *by their friends* -- not the ones from our feeder pack. We encouraged folks to stop navel gazing and start knocking on doors. A couple of dads are putting together a recruiting program targeting school and church youth groups.

 

Stay tuned.

[Eagledad]

>>I think that in some ways this takes away a lot of the excitement of going to Scout Camp and I can see why a lot of Scouts who by the age of 13 or 14 feel that they have been there, done that and already have a ton of t-shirts.

[AKdenldr]

Well, to look at this question backwards....

 

If Cub Scouting is over shadowing Boy Scouting in numbers..... Is Boy Scouting hurting Cub Scouting?

 

This year, as I have a foot in both Pack and Troop I see extremely different programs. They almost seem unrelated. If Cub Scouting numbers are so high..... What is Boy Scouting doing wrong to loose these boys?

 

From where I stand, the leap from cub to boy scouting is too high for all but the most resourceful/dedicated parents.

 

My thoughts -- AK

 

[Basementdweller]

AK.......

 

That is what a Properly run webelos program does.......

 

At our last Pack camp out, I was amazed at the number of parents that simply let their kids play while they set up their tents and did the dishes.

 

You take that same kid and then send him on a troop outing and then expect him to cook, clean and take care of himself......well of course he is disappointed and upset.

 

I am seeing it in this year webelos crossover group. really struggling to get their patrol site setup and tore down. It is they just want to sit down around the fire or picnic table.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)