Consequences

[Engineer61]

Hmmm ... not sure I'd be sending him to Philmont with some kind of heads up.

 

I'd also be make sure he's not in possession of any lighters.

 

 

[qwazse]

Eng, much as I'd like to agree, the ability to enforce will be nearly impossible. Sooner or later, there's going to be a campout where your guard is down and the fuel is smuggled in.

 

I like the "incremental enhanced educational opportunities" approach. I wouldn't see it as punishing the troop. You're just "sharing the love". And if the boy needs to be suspended from a hike into a drought area because of your love for the outdoors, then so be it.

 

Scoutfish -- The Firem'n Chit card is not a bad idea for younger scouts, for older scouts it probably won't have the desired effect. Unless: if this is the kind of boy that's gone around nagging younger scouts to show him their cards, TwoCub, you are almost obligated to turn the tables on the boy.

 

The only fault I can see with the incident itself is that *too much* fuel was taken on the trip. Again, this is hard to regulate, but in my estimation if someone has a bottle to burn, someone didn't plan well. Just something to review with the PL. Oh, and the patrol owes the troop for wasted fuel.

 

Like everything, your ability to lighten up depends on the boy's ability to own up and apologise to his fellow scouts.

[frankpalazzi]

If this happened in my troop, a disciplinary Board Of Review would be held with offender, parents of offender, SM, SPL, CC/COR, and at least 2 Committee members. Philmont is NO place for someone who exhibits this kind of behavior repeatedly, and especially with dangerous substances.

Everyone's safety is at stake here.

[BadenP]

Frankscout

 

In situations like this it always amazes me how many and how fast so many scouters are ready to act with overkill, and become the judge, jury, and executioner. Your troops policy is way over the top, IMO. Yes what this boy did was serious but unless you have all the facts in front of you, which none of us do, then you are in NO position to give any advice.

 

Twocub, I am sure you know the boy well enough to be able to decide the best resolution for his act, in any case let level heads prevail.

[Scoutfish]

"The boy told his dad he "really screwed up bad" and was pretty upset and remorseful"

 

WEll, if he truely feels that way, he is not beyond help. All is not lost!

[Twocubdad]

Yeah, 'fish, I'm holding on to that, too.

 

We don't do Firemen Chit or Totin' Chips. Just seems like paperwork to me. Stove use and safety is something we teach all new Scouts within their first month in the troop, prior to their first campout. It's a Second Class requirement. To me, anyone who is Second Class or above, OR has that requirement completed knows better. Besides, it's not like this guy forgot the rules and needs to re-learn them -- it's an issue of judgment and applying what he has been taught.

 

And as I tell all my Scouts, the whole program works on trust -- can I trust you to do the right thing when no adults are around? What prevents some kid from getting up at 2am and deciding to use fuel from the stove to re-light the campfire? Are we supposed to have adults take turns staying up just in case? We can never provide enough supervision to prevent every single stupid thing someone wants to try.

 

As far as that goes, the kid is probably better off at Philmont than on a troop campout. At Philmont the crew will be 2:1 Scouts to adults and the adults will be camping with the crew. On troop campouts we're usually closer to 5-or-6:1 and we try to keep the adults in our own campsite 300 feet away.

 

ENG61 -- I think we're giving the Philmont crew advisor a little more than a "heads up". Please give us a little more credit than that. For one, the advisor has been an ASM in the troop for six years and has known this Scout since he was a cub. In fact, HE called ME today (apparently the Coconut Telegraph was working overtime) to discuss the issue and to say he still wants the boy on the trip. As I noted before, the crew advisor has been asked to sit on the Board of Review, so he'll have an opportunity to be involved first hand.

 

I appreciate all the input. Like many of the old-timers who have been around the program for a long tmiime, I think we generally know the right answers, but for me at least, the ability to think aloud and bounce the thought process off others if helpful.

 

And Gary, I appreciate your comments too, as I know they were offered in good faith and with a sincere concern. My apologies for my smart-a** retort. I honestly disagree with you and my reply was going to be either two words or 5,000. After two nights on the trail, I just didn't have the energy for the longer response. But that doesn't justify being a jerk to you. Again, please accept my apologies.

[Tampa Turtle]

Gentleman,

 

I agree with the middle course. Kind seems salvageable. We have some "official fire tenders" in our troop. I like the idea of making a lad do Fire Safety MB. Also the medical visit.

[Engineer61]

Since everyone wants to keep this kid on board riddle me this BatScouts ...

 

The next time that "the guard is down" and this kid throws more Coleman fuel or maybe a can of fuel for the JetBoil on the fire and forest catches, what will be the justification then?

 

Worse yet, if a kid on the other side of the fire goes up in flames, how will you justify it then?

 

Scary thought eh?

[Basementdweller]

Say it was your son who made the mistake??????

 

You had spent $500-1000 to send him to Philmont......

 

 

would your opinion be the same.

[Twocubdad]

So we had a really, really good meeting with the Scout and his dad tonight. As our committee chairman said, he's never come away from one of those sort of meetings feeling good about the situation.

 

The young man came in prepared with a written letter describing what he had done, why it was wrong, how serious the situation could have been and then apologized for both his behavior and the grief he had caused the troop leaders. Although he had the letter, he made the apology unprompted and impressed me as being very sincere. This is normally an extremely quiet fellow, so just stepping up and delivering the apology in front of a half-dozen adults was a big step. At circle-up at the end of the troop meeting, he made a similar apology to the whole troop.

 

In the end, he's been given the assignment to write an essay of the effects of severe burns and to turn that into a presentation he will deliver to the troop at the end of the month.

 

I don't think I can describe to you all the sense of contrition the young man expressed, but you'll have to take my word for it. I don't think we could have expected much more.

 

ENG61 -- I'm not trying to justify to young man's behavior now or in the future. We're just a bunch of regular folks trying to do our best to deliver a good, safe program for all the boys, this one included. I can't promise that someone won't do something boneheaded and dangerous again next month. Actually I probably can promise someone will do something boneheaded sooner or later. But I'm pretty sure this fellow won't be stepping out of line anytime soon.

[ASM915]

Twocub,

 

I'm glad the meeting turned out good. I surprised that a couple of things were not brought up in this discussion & have a couple thoughts for future problems.

 

1) In discussions with the parents, was it asked if there had been any previous events like this away from scouting? Maybe the parents never thought of other incidents as a problem, and are missing a more serious & dangerous issue with the son.

 

2) Trip to the Burn Unit could voliate HIPPA depending how it is done.

 

Possible things that future offenders have to do:

 

1) Firemanmship MB

 

2) Have a talk with the local Fire Chief. He might have some graphic pictures of burn victims (this of course with parents consent).

 

Also if Chief has access to training center's fire/smoke house, (again with parents consent) suit and pack the scout up, and place him in the structure with the chief as the place is lit up so he has the expereince of feeling the heat & can seeing how fast things can happen. Waivers would have to be signed by a parties involved to pull this one off.

3) Next, off to talk with the MD's & Rn's that work the Burn Unit.

 

4) These doc's & RN's may be involved with a burn victim support group that may have a victim or two that might be willing to talk with the scout about their experience (no HIPPA violation in play here). Maybe they would be willing to talk to the Troop or patrols at this scouts invite.

 

5) The scout then goes back to the Troop/patrol to give an indepth discussion and training on fire safety.

 

The smokehouse, & face to face sitdown discussion with a burn

victim will definitely have a lasting impression, hopefully for the better, on any Scout.

 

Just 2 cents worth from someone with 25 year in Fire/Ems, 30+ in the ED, and 20 in Scouting.

 

YIS

ASM915(This message has been edited by asm915)

[ASM915]

Twocub,

 

I'm glad the meeting turned out good. I surprised that a couple of things were not brought up in this discussion & have a couple thoughts for future problems.

 

1) In discussions with the parents, was it asked if there had been any previous events like this away from scouting? Maybe the parents never thought of other incidents as a problem, and are missing a more serious & dangerous issue with the son.

 

2) Trip to the Burn Unit could voliate HIPPA depending how it is done.

 

Possible things that future offenders have to do:

 

1) Firemanmship MB

 

2) Have a talk with the local Fire Chief. He might have some graphic pictures of burn victims (this of course with parents consent).

 

Also if Chief has access to training center's fire/smoke house, (again with parents consent) suit and pack the scout up, and place him in the structure with the chief as the place is lit up so he has the expereince of feeling the heat & can seeing how fast things can happen. Waivers would have to be signed by a parties involved to pull this one off.

3) Next, off to talk with the MD's & Rn's that work the Burn Unit.

 

4) These doc's & RN's may ne involved with a burn victim support group that may have a victim or two that Marion Award be willing to talk to the scout about their experience (no HIPPA violation in play here). Maybe they would be willing to talk to the Troop or patrols at this scouts invite.

 

5) The scout then goes back to the Troop/patrol to give an indepth discussion and training on fire safety.

 

The smokehouse, & face to face sitdown discussion with a burn

victim will definitely have a lasting impression, hopefully for the better, on any Scout.

 

Just 2 cents worth from someone with 25 year in Fire/Ems, 30+ in the ED, and 20 in Scouting.

 

YIS

ASM915

[evmori]

Nice job TwoCub!

[Eagledad]

What evmori said.

 

Barry