Slippery slope youth protection question

[KC9DDI]

It doesn't sound like it strictly violates the YP guidelines, but they kind of took the scenic route to get there. I'd wonder what kind of dynamic was going on within the unit and between the unit and this family that led to this particular course of action being taken...

[evmori]

In the G2SS it states

 

Separate accommodations. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his or her own parent or guardian.

 

Do you see the word legal?

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Our families are so diverse married, unmarried, GF, BF, Grandparents, ect.....easiest just to tent the boys together and not worry about the rest. The Pack has been doing this since before my time. Works for us

[TAHAWK]

I realize that this is a necrothread, but the question of a grandfather being allowed to tent with his grandson came up yesterday at Baloo training.

 

In Ohio, a grandfather is not a "parent" unless he has adopted the child.

 

In Ohio, a "Guardian" is only a person appointed to that position by the Probate Court of the respective county.

 

With all respects to Beavah, we need to follow the rules. We are on our honor to follow the rules (when we can figure out what they are). This is not life in general.

 

I spent an hour trying to find an anwser to this specific issue or a link, I finally sent the questrion to the training guy.

 

What makes this cut is that, in this family, dad is dead and grandfather has been filling in.

 

Several have suggested the obvious solution of having Cubs tent together with surrogates in another tent.

[TAHAWK]

Response from responsible paid Scouters at National Council (head of Safety and head of Youth Protection), supposing that grandfather is surrogate dad due to death of dad:

 

No problem with grandfather going along just not tenting together.

 

We need to work on changing that rule.

[perdidochas]

I realize the wording in the manual and training, but that's why i titled this slippery slope. due to the paperwork completed, the parent with teh boy *IS IN FACT* the legal guardian. I suppose the safer solution is to look at the intent of the guideline rather than the technical boundary. It is simply safer for all parties involved if the boy has his own tent.

 

I like to keep things simple, and a good way I can ask the question that makes this clear and evident:

 

"Even if you sign a paper assigning legal guardianship, would you want this unrelated adult to see your son change clothes- or would you want your son to see him?"

 

The answer to that had better be so shockingly obvious to any reasonable adult that it removes the question of what is allowed and replaces it with the obvious 'What is right'.

 

I would only do something like that with an adult I trust to take care not to be changing clothes while my son is in the tent, and an adult that would leave while my son is doing it. I can see how the above can be problematic, but if the parent trusts the other man, then that's good enough for me.

 

When I was a Cub Leader, there was one boy who was pretty much raised by his grandmother (mother was around, but not really taking care of the boy). The gay uncle (didn't know it for sure at the time, but later I met his boyfriend) was the guardian for this boy during campouts, sharing a tent, etc. Honestly, since the grandmother was all for it, I wasn't going to stop it. The boy needed male influence, both from his uncle and Scouting.

[qwazse]

Response from responsible paid Scouters at National Council (head of Safety and head of Youth Protection), supposing that grandfather is surrogate dad due to death of dad:

 

No problem with grandfather going along just not tenting together.

 

We need to work on changing that rule.[/size][/font][/color]

 

Confused about what you think needs changed:

Allow "unoffical" guardians (gramps, adult brother) assigned by parents/legal guardians to tent with cubs. (After all, nothing in guardianship law is intended to cover which adults may temporarily shelter a youth for the purposes of outdoor recreation.), or

Stipulate that "guardian" in G2SS must refer to the definition applied by your state. (Which it sounds like this pro- effectively did.)

[TAHAWK]

I think the rule is wrong and should be changed so it does not prohibit grandfather from tenting with his grandson - especially when he is acting as a surrogate dad - if the parent executes a document expressly allowing the grandfather to act in all respects as if he were the parent of the child. This is 2014. The "traditional" family is not the majority, but the children still need Scouting and grandpa is at least a likely to be a good role model as dad.

 

I recognize that there are other solutions, but feel the rule is misguided. IIRC, parents are the class of adults who inflict the vast majority of injuries on their children. Relatives are only the second-most likely to do so,. Strangers come in a poor third.

 

In what state is an "unofficial guardian" anything other than a person who is not a "guardian"?

 

[Twocubdad]

BSA policy is not law. It doesn't matter what state you're in. Go back and read Beavah's post from 2011. That pretty much covers it. It isn't our business who a parent designates as their child's guardian for an activity.

 

If you interpret BSA's use of the word "guardian" to be "the person to who a parent entrust their child" you'll do fine.

[TAHAWK]

Yes, such an "interpretation" would solve the problem, while being contrary to the ordinary meaning of the words, the legal meaning of the words, and BSA's current, authoritative interpretation as noted above.

 

Beavah is great guy and I miss him here. But his insights are also not the law, even if we all agree that it ought to be the way he wants it.

 

We are supposed to model complaince with the Scout Oath and Law. I may not do that 100% but intentionallty ignoring the rules is not something I am prepared to do.

[qwazse]

So, what you are saying, is that a parent must not only assign guardianship over the child's health and safety over the weekend, but also authority over all of the child's financial resources over the weekend.

[Sidney Porter]

So for those taking a hardline with the gaurdianship. How do you handle parents that have been divorced and then either remarried or in a dating live in relationship? More than likely the new spouse is not the legal guardian (and even less likely if it is a dating relationship), would you say that they cannot share a tent on a camp out? A lot of time the scout may even live with the person in question.

 

I agree this is solved if the scouts sleep with scouts. We encourage that with webelos. But that requires 2x the tents and space. Normally I will bring 3 tents if car camping with cubs. A 6 man which houses 3 or 4 scouts, a 4 man which houses 2, and my 2 man backpacking which houses me. We also have several 3 man tent which we can put 2 scouts in.

[SM bob]

My pack always had the Webelos scouts sleep in a tent as a group with parents in there own tents. That way a scout could come to the campout without his parents. Tigers, wolfs, and bears must have their parents with them. Plus this prepared the Webelos for Boy Scouts.

[JasonG172]

In our Pack Webelos are allowed to go on camp outs without parents. All they so is sign a permission slip

[Stosh]

A parent signing a permission slip to attend is not the same thing as giving up legal guardianship of their children.

 

The G2SS states Parent or Legal Guardian. That is not anyone other than the legal next of kin for a child. If one finds it difficult to understand how this works, take someone else's child into the ER trauma center and show them the permission slip or the form you think gives you the right to determine medical treatment as a parent or legal guardian. I'm sure the nurse will take that all into consideration after she tells you to go sit down in the waiting room while she goes to find the legal parent or guardian.

 

Parental rights and guardianship rights are determined by law, not by the parents.

 

Stosh