The runaway Train

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Unfortunately, the CC and COR are the key players in appointing new leaders. They are free to ignore the advice of the committee.

 

And frankly, for good OR ill, you aren't eligible to be appointed SM until you are 21. Your opinion about that requirement isn't really relevent to the issue. If you fill out an adult leaders application get it signed off and turn it in, it will be rejected because of your age.

 

You need to be smarter about how you play the game of Troop politics.

 

Nevertheless, I admire your energy and passion, and I will await developments with interest.

 

 

 

 

[moosetracker]

So you got to hear from the two young adults in question, and can get a small flavor of their personalities.

 

I did want to make a correction. When I stated.. Basically time will have to mellow the feeling my son sees in black & white, and can not see shades of gray.. I meant that this was the view of the COR, and the CC (or at least at one time by the CC, I am told by my son she has since talked to him, and has modified that view. But I think the COR is still of that opinion..).. This is not my view..

 

Although I will say that son can be stubborn & exasperating it is usually just something between parent/ child..

 

I think my husband has just did what packsaddle just mentioned. Because although he has been back & forth with me, and driving me nuts, he never said a word of his feelings to the other troop leaders, then just Bam.. He told them over the phone he will be leaving when the summer break starts..

 

I think my son & his fiance have stated they will leave the committee if the vote is taken away from them and are doing that for the troop (but fiance is not also giving up the CC at Pack level).. I do not know if they have threatened anything else.. Maybe a little puffing up and trying to reason with them, but I don't think they have been guilty of idle threats..

 

They are now at the committee meeting, and I have a feeling it will be a long one..

 

So you like my sons username?? Geesh I looked at that and said, "you have to type that in before every post!".. He knew that, but chose it anyway.. I suggest just calling him blacksmith..

[Scoutfish]

It's really, really simple.

 

1) They brole rules they signed a pledge to follow in order to get what they wanted. Why is anybody at all surprised they did it again when they are again trying to get what they want. You knew them as rule breakers. Why the hurt feelings when they did again, what you already knew them to have done.?

 

Just like a person who leaves their spouse to be with their maid/poolboy lover..why think they won't do it agaion? Why the surprise and hurt feelings when they do to you..what the two of you did to somebody else?

 

2) Laws, rules, SOP's ...whatever! Toe-may-toe...tah-mah-toe....red oxalic acid fruit sphere.

 

Whatever, I think everybody knows that BSA's rules are not part of any federal or state laws. But we did sign a document saying we would support and uphold them.

 

If a unit totally goes out of it's way to get around and cheat the rules to get the outcome it wants...they WILL do it again and again. THis possibly could have been the first time, but it sure ain't the last!

 

 

[moosetracker]

Scoutfish - Why the surprise and hurt feelings when they do to you..what the two of you did to somebody else?

 

You make it sound like these two cheated the system to steal these postions from two deserving canadates. What these two did hurt no one.. They promised to do the positions on the committee.. One asked in return to be granted voting rights and received them.. They have done their positions with more enthusiasm and care then most of your average committee members..

 

True these two have been hurt by others breaking rules and not keeping those promises.. But these two have hurt no one..

 

Many times we have discussed the way committees follow or do not follow the recommended policies.. Some give the vote to their SM and ASM's.. Some allow parents who are not registered on the committee to have a vote.. Some don't even have a committee and the whole committee is in name only while the CM or SM run everything..

 

Yes policy was not followed to give them the vote, as much policy as any unit that gives their SM/CM and assistants the vote.. Because that is what they did they gave ASM's a vote. The real rule broken is the one the COR orchistrated herself to put a 19 yo into the CC position, and shuffle the paperwork.. And I will agree that should not have been done.

 

But I disagree with the notion that these two have hurt anyone. They have been hurt, they have not hurt anyone.

[Scoutfish]

Nah, what I am saying is this: The Troop Committee openly and knowingly choose to break trhe rules when they asked your son to be the Outdoor Coordinator.

 

Just a wink wink here, shuffling of names and papers there and nobody wil be wiser.

 

Then they ask your fiance-in-law ( yeah, I just made that up! ) to do the same thing.

Again, a little wink wink here, shuffling of names on the paperwork and tadah,.. that council will never know about us breaking the rules.

 

My question is this: Why is your son and fiance-in-law surprised that the troop committee broke their word again? Why are they taken aback by the fact the troop lied and mislead them to believe something if the troop had no intentions of honoring it?

 

I mean, this is not the first time, but in this circumstance, and with your son and F-I-L ...the 3rd and 4th time.

 

I never said your sonm or his fiance hurt anybody, I am saying the TC purposely lied to and mislead BSA. They worked around obstacles and manipulated ( well cheated really) the system to get the particular results they wanted.

 

Why is your son and his fiance shocked that it happened again? They ( son and F-I-L ) were used as pawns.

 

The question is this: Who uis nect? The COR? The CO? The IH? The members of the troop? All the scouts?

 

I have no reason to think that this is the end of the winking and shuffling..

 

Does your son, his fiance, you or your husband think so?

[John-in-KC]

One of the very hard lessons I've learned in life is that collegiality and collaboration work most of the time.

 

Dysfunction doesn't work most of the time.

 

My read, moose family, is that this Troop is in full-fledged dysfunction. Here is my question, for you to answer only in your hearts: How much emotional reserve energy do you have? From my read here, much of the energy that should go into the youth of the Troop is instead going into the dysfunction of the grown-ups.

 

There's a simple remedy for dysfunction: Thank everyone for the good times you had, say your farewells, and walk out the door. There will be other days and other youth to serve. Save the energy for them. From what I read here, this Troop is a recipe for burn-out.

[Twocubdad]

Beav, buddy, relax. Sorry to get your tail all curled up. Here's a nice willow limb to chew on.

 

My intent wasn't to get all legalistic, rather to point out when you agree to something that's against the rules, you don't have much of a case when they other guy breaks the agreements. Could have used the story about the dog and snake crossing the river, but the Statute of Frauds seemed more on point. I won't let that happen again.

 

MIB & teacher/scout -- welcome. First, understand when you adopt a 25-character username, it's going to get shortened, nothing personal.

 

Unfortunately, what you're experiencing is not uncommon in the adult side of Scouting. Yeah, it can suck. People can be very childish and territorial. For some reason this program tends to attract tin-horn dictators (my apologies to all the tin-horn dictators out there -- no offense intended.) Read the still-active thread, "Friends of Scouting and out of Touch District." Basementdweller busts his chops putting on a great program for his pack and tries to extend that to others and gets his "nose" slammed in the door. My experiences in Scouting at the district and council level have been very similar. You probably shouldn't read about the stuff that goes on in Abel Magwitch's council -- holy smokes!

 

There are all sorts of reasons why folks get treated the way they do. In your case it seems your COR either doesn't understand her job or doesn't have the cajones to do it. Instead of making a decision and living with the consequences, she's play games with membership rules and voting. You can find a unit more appreciative of your services (although I understand your loyalty to your old troop) or you can grit your teeth and grin with the knowledge that one day you'll dance on these bozo's graves.

 

I for one give you two a lot of credit for your willingness to take on additional responsibilities in the pack and troop beyond what the R&Rs permit. After all, is there really a big difference between a 20-year-old ASM/Outings and a 21-year-old Outings Chairman? It's unfortunate the COR has chosen to play politics.

 

Hang in there. Regardless of the outcome I would be proud to serve along side either of you.

[neil_b]

Seattle is absolutely right. It's one thing to let an ASM have a vote in committee when he's not supposed to. It's quite another to put somebody down as Scoutmaster on the form that has to be turned in to national. When they go to type it into the computer it will surely get flagged that the person is not 21. Then the only way to get around that is to put a different name on the form, and that is just dishonest.

 

I don't think anybody has mentioned legal ramifications here. If somehow it were possible that somebody became Scoutmaster who did not meet the BSA's qualificatons, and a disaster happens on a camp out, will the BSA insurance pay? Will parents start filing lawsuits against the chartered organization for putting somebody in charge of their boys who didn't meet the most basic qualifications? I'm sure then the BSA would pull the troop's charter and wash their hands of it.

[Oak Tree]

The Troop Committee openly and knowingly choose to break trhe rules when they asked your son to be the Outdoor Coordinator.

 

Bzzzt. It is not against the rules to ask a non-committee member to be the outdoor coordinator.

 

If somehow it were possible that somebody became Scoutmaster who did not meet the BSA's qualificatons, and a disaster happens on a camp out, will the BSA insurance pay?

 

Yes. But woo-hoo! Beavah, look, someone has turned it into a discussion about insurance!

 

They broke rules

 

Scoutfish, I don't see how they broke any rules. They were not official committee members - they were just acting as committee members. Many troops will say that "all parents are members of the committee" but not register them all. Are they "breaking the rules"? Not at all.

 

When it comes down to it, the COR can do whatever he wants here anyway. He can ignore the committee vote. He can use it as advisory only. It's not like there is some binding law here that's being broken.

 

The biggest problem comes from expectations and communications. If the COR had been clear about this with everyone up front, then I think that things would be fine.

[Lisabob]

What 2cub said.

 

Please understand, I wasn't intending to put down either of you, or your service to the scout units you've been involved with. It is great that you have the time, desire, energy, and heart to step up and take these positions. Of course, I do think there's something to be said for experience (by which I mean, living in the adult world for a while) because a lot of the issues & problems that happen in scouting units are, unfortunately, NOT about the boys, the outdoors, or scout skills. Instead, they are about dealing with troublesome parents, old-timer scouters who just won't let go, adult personality clashes, etc. And there, you're at a disadvantage no matter what you say or do. Again, not necessarily because you can't do it - but because you will start out with a credibility gap due to your age and the process through which you might be selected.

 

That kind of bites (well no, it really bites). It is still true, though.

 

Anyway, whatever the outcome, I hope you'll stick around the board here for a bit and share your views with the rest of us.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Lisa

[Eagle92]

MIB and ST

 

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS although I do wish it wasn't in the situation you are in.

 

2) I understand your disgust in the way that Gray Area Scouters ( GASers), i.e. 18-20 y.o. are limited in the positions they can be in AS WELL AS the the way that some scouters Treat them. Part of the problem in regards to age 21 is that in most jurisdictions, you are not legally an adult until age 21, despite the fact that you can vote, pay taxes, and serve in the military. So that's one reason I bet for the limits GASers can serve in. As for the way folk treat GASers, as well as some of the 21+ crowd, I been there and know what you are going through.

 

3) In regards to being told one thing, then something else happening, unfortunately that happens in the real world. Best example I can give is Social Security in which pay into it with one set of promises, then when it comes to collect, it is completely different as, if you read the legalese as well as the 1950s or 60s SCOTUS decision, Social Security is NOT a guaranteed program, and the government can change the benefits, or even deny the benefits per the SCOTUS decision, as they please.

 

4) While I know you love your troop and have some loyalty to it, troops, and its members and leaders do grow. Sometimes a person does need to know when to walk away and move on, and it can be difficult.

 

Good luck.

[sherminator505]

Adults can be a piece of work, no?

 

Sometimes troops have train wrecks. And while it may be a troop that we feel connected to, and we may not care to see the train wreck happen, there are times when we must watch it happen and assist in the recovery efforts. Watching the train wreck means stepping back so as not to become part of the unfolding carnage.

 

My first stint as Scoutmaster arose from a train wreck of sorts. At the time I was a 22 year old ASM when the SM moved on, and although I was interested in the job I was passed over in favor of a slightly older Eagle Scout who came over from another troop.

 

Fine. Whatever. I stayed on as an ASM to help this guy grow into the position and back him up as best I could. Problem was, this guy wasn't growing, and in fact he wasn't nearly as grown up as the committee and COR were led to believe. Several of the boys sensed this and left in what could best be described as a mass exodus.

 

While this was going on, I was fortunate enough to go to Wood Badge on a campership. I tried to convince him that Scoutmaster Fundamentals would be a good idea, but he was so confident in his skills and abilities that he didn't see the need.

 

After a few months of this, the SM was asked to leave. At about the same time, the Methodist church that sponsored the troop got a new pastor with a Scout-age boy! All of a sudden, we had ten boys who were interested in Scouting, and the troop was reborn.

 

Does this mean that I became the Scoutmaster right away? Nope. I worked with one of the troop committee members as "interim co-Scoutmasters" (yes, I realize that is not an "official" troop leadership structure) while the SM search began anew.

 

We almost had one of the new mothers talked into the job. She was gung-ho, she was interested, but she worried that she didn't have the training and she had doubts that the boys would respect a female SM. Still, I honestly thought she'd be our new SM, and I believed that up until the CC walked up to me as the Scouts cleaned up after the meeting and told me the committee wished to speak with me. Thus began my first stint as SM, which lasted for three years until I finished my MS and moved.

 

Forgive my rambling, but my point is that these things do eventually sort themselves out. Don't try to force it.(This message has been edited by sherminator505)

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

First off I have no issues with people shortening my username....I knew it was long when I made it but thats what I wanted a nice combination of my nickname my heritage and one of my hobbies.

 

Okay well the committee meeting went swimmingly. Both my fianc and I turned in our jobs and are now leaning toward leaving the troop. Oh and the same Scoutmaster was elected again in a close vote between me and him.

 

We took them by surprise at this meeting and the Troop is in for some hurting. Which is not what I want to do to the boys but no matter what we do it was going that way and it had been going that way for a long time.

 

We have boys that refuse to go on trips unless one of the three of us is present. We also have boys who the committee doesnt want to deal with the medical issues off so they passed them off to us. There are also no leaders with the skill sets required for the jobs the 3 of us had.

 

My issue with this situation was not my running for scoutmaster and if my vote could help there or not. It was a deal made that was broken "a verbal contract". The age of scoutmaster wouldnt have mattered any way as it would become effective in the fall 2 weeks before I turn 21 and the re-charter isnt even until December. So the Scoutmaster position really is kind of a side note. Something that needed to change if there was any hope of fixing the troop but not important to the story.

 

Lisabob: I have had my share of life experience and am one of those people that can see beyond where I am at. With the amount of bull Ive put up with in this troop and for how long I've learned how to deal with adults and still get what I need done done. I know a lot of adults older than me that are worse at dealing with issues, fights, and personality clashes then I am.

 

Packsaddle: I am well known to be honest and straight to the point. People who know me know that if I make up my mind its gonna happen. If I give a warning/threat its to let you know something needs to change pronto or I WILL (not may) WILL carry it out. If I do that its to be fair to people or to give them an idea something needs fixing that they cant seem to fix. And it has worked on more than one occasion for me because people know Im not a blowhard or a coward. But usually thats that what I find to be necessary and I go with what I feel is right and the rest will fall as it falls.

 

Oh and so your all aware our District Executive loves to have young adults filling adult roles and pushes it as much as possible. As he says "the organization is for the youth both the boys and young adults. We should be teaching the young adults how to become fully fledged adults and get them ready for the real world by giving them every opportunity and support we can here." He was very supportive of me being Outdoor Coordinator and really liked that.

 

 

Just so everyone knows cause I think there was some confusion when I told you about the personalities of the CC, COR, and SM. I was merely saying that that is how they are. I still am very cordial with them and get along with them fine for the most part.(This message has been edited by MoosetheItalianBlacksmith)

[moosetracker]

Son did well expressing himself, just wanted to add a few things on.

 

The "broken deal" was more then verbal. It was in writting in the minutes of a meeting about 2.5 years back.. It is just that we don't have those minutes anymore, and since they are handed out in MS Word, was accused that if we did, they were meaningless since they could have been Doctored by me.

 

The DE is very for young adults getting involved. He cannot give them the main position chair, and they do go by the book and not allow them as voting committee members. But they can work on subcommittees and/or even head a subcommittee. Being district they do have to go by the book more so then a unit..

 

Things son did not mention, was that the COR let the CC do the decision about the voting. So it was the CC who made the decision, even though the week before she is telling these two that she agreed with them, if they do the work on the committee they should have the committee vote. So they felt betrayed by that.

 

The meeting (and after meeting) went until 10:00 pm.. There was though no yelling or theatrical scenes.. Just the three resigning from their position. The young people effective immediately although they will do the job of ASM (which means sit at the meeting and do nothing), (don't know if they said anything about leaving at the end of the season or not), Hubby who said he was not interested in the SM position & is there until the end of the school year to train his replacement.. And two shocked and stunned CC & COR who had all their plans smashed, and did not know what hit them, and how they will fix this.

 

Oh and the current SM is happy to keep his job, but since his son will probably get his Eagle shortly after his project is completed at the end of summer, no one really expects that he will continue in the position as SM because he was well known to just be in the position for his son's benefit.

 

The troop though will either learn and come out of the mess they have created for themselves or not. I would like to hope, they will fix it though.. My family doesn't need the emotional upheaval, but you do hope that we will not be the beginning of the end for the troop.. They have been around since 1943 and have alot of history, I just hope this will be a low spot in the up & down spiral of the unit. I hope they will learn a valuable lesson, dust themselves off and rise up again.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Well I hate that you folks are leaving, but it may force the issue with the troop to improve. Most troops tend to go in cycles, event he ones with a SM who's been in the role 25 years, as my troop growing up did.

 

As for your DE, sounds like my type of DE, hopefully some of the "Old Guard" don't treat them like I was some, not all but SOME, of the "Old Guard" when I was a 21yo chapter adviser and on the district committee.

 

Good luck.