The runaway Train

[moosetracker]

This is the son...responding on Moms forum as I havent gotten around to making one of my own. 2 things you need to realize when I took the position there were not many leaders and all the leaders were sick of taking on more positions. They were getting worn out and there were still empty postions. I took it because it needed to be filled as things weren't getting done but I had the stipulation that I could vote because.....put it this why would you go to work if you weren't getting payed?.....Same principle...It wouldnt be fair to ask sombody to take on a responsibility and not give them the benifits that go with it.

 

The boys dont like the scout master......We've gotten multiple complaints and we've asked everyone thats left the troop why they did...answer... Scoutmaster or it was no fun anymore because we weren't doing scout stuff....which again is the Scoutmaster because of how he handles things.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[ScoutNut]

I would not go to work when someone else's name was on my desk and paycheck.

 

Bottom line - this is what happens when you (son, fiance, COR) play fast and loose with the rules.

 

18-20 year olds can NOT be REGISTERED in any BSA adult unit positions other than as an assistant leader.

 

Is the example of folding and stapling the rules to suit yourself really the example you all want to set the youth?

 

My suggestion would be to back off, and do the job YOU are REGISTERED in. You are also free to volunteer your time in any other way you want, but don't expect to get, or demand, any "benefits" when you are not "official".

 

 

[qwazse]

MT,

Yep. Family does have a way of getting us sucked into stuff, doesn't it?

 

MT's Son,

First of all, thanks for volunteering. I assure you that I could use a few mor guys like you in my neck of the woods. And, I really really do get the whole "seeing the boys not have fun and wishing I could do something about it" feeling.

 

But: harsh reality, volunteers sometimes get treated like dirt. Even if you're over 21 and there's no official reason for the treatment, sometimes someone will trump up an official reason so they can treat you like dirt. Sometimes you can effect a change in peoples attitudes, but that doesn't happen instantly. Sometimes you gotta vote with your feet. Short of that ...

 

If these people are so officious that they actually will heed little pieces of paper, you could walk into the meeting with the minutes from the meeting where it was approved to grant you voice AND vote on the committee. If their motivition is to not have their decision questioned in the future, they may listen. If their motivation is to stonewall you, well ...

 

As an ASM, you can make your opinion matter disproportionately by simply conveying to the institutional head and charter organization rep: "These are the leadership structures under which I will happily serve ..." Then it's up to the CO to weigh your opinion with the committee's and decide which structure they want to invest in.

 

The real question, and the only one that matters, if things don't go your way, will you still serve cheerfully? Otherwise, there is the feet thing that I mentioned earlier ...

[Beavah]

Oh, ease up about "the rules" already.

 

First, the rules for how a unit selects committee members and unit leaders are set by the Chartered Organization. If the COR wants the committee to vote, the committee votes. That's totally in keeping with da BSA guidelines, which state that the committee or another group appointed by the COR consider, rank, approach, and select the unit leader. So da applicable "rules" here are da rules for committee operation and leader selection that the Chartered Organization set up, and that were relied upon by others in making decisions. A proper UC would be supportin' da rights and responsibilities of da COR in this regard.

 

Second, it ain't about da paperwork, it's about character and ethics.

 

The fact is, in any organization there are some people who are the drivers who do the work. They're invested, they care, they have the time, whatever. Our obligation as fellow citizens is to recognize 'em and support 'em and thank 'em. Not to discriminate based on age, or gender, or status as a former scout, or whether or not they are a parent, or how much money they make. If you care, and you do the work, then you deserve the support and recognition that comes with that.

 

A COR represents an organization, and most organizations recognize that legally, morally, physically, mentally, and spiritually an 18 year old is an adult. These people are about to get married for cryin' out loud! Of course anyone with an ounce of sense would welcome them if they wanted to give their time to scouting, and if they were truly the best people for the job would use them. And support them. And respect them.

 

As I've said in other places, it is the norm in da rest of the world for young adults to serve as unit leaders. In fact it's considered a bit creepy for parent-aged folks to be SMs and da like. And in this, we are da backward nation. But if the COR says the 18 year old can participate on da committee and gets a vote that she's going to listen to, then he does.

 

Here, the problem seems to be that the COR doesn't know where she's tryin' to go with the unit and is sending mixed signals. That's not a recipe for success. In some ways random COR involvement is worse than none. I'd suggest someone sit down with da COR and maybe IH and talk about where things should be goin' and perhaps if she's best for the job, or if she can get some help with da things she's not good at, like managing conflict or making hard decisions.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[moosetracker]

Hey Son, get your own username, Easier for everyone to tell who is posting what.. Very weird to see you have posted something you did not.. (But honestly he will tell me I took his username, as his nickname is Moose, I just took it during an age when I had to constantly trackdown the Moose.. I don't track him as much anymore..)

 

qwaze - I was the one who kept the minutes of the meetings at the time it was voted in.. Actually at the time I was in the CC position temporarily until they could find a new CC.. I took it for exactly 6 months, because I knew when I planeed to leave the troop, so I knew I could not get tricked into it any longer (though they did try to conviently forget that too, and force me to stay on longer..) Anyway, I just let my son come in give his proposal, and stayed out of the discussion and the vote.. I though was not against the situation, as the committee was working in skeleton mode with only those of us whose sons had already aged out of the program.

 

Anyway, about 4 months back I deleted that folder of my time as CC.. It was an old job, and no longer needed.. It would not have done him any good anyways, as they already forethought that I might have the minutes of the meetings and disqualified them stating since I was CC at the time, I could have doctored them.. (Huh, I wasn't the sectretary, so why would I have the ability to Doctor them as CC better then I could have Dr. them as some other committee position?) And I don't know why they stated that I would have Doctored them and not my husband.. He is the one fighting with the kids, I haven't said a word to them.)

 

Personally I really don't have a preference of the outcome. If my son was allowed to keep the rights they granted him, he would have been treated fairly. But, if their behavior gets my family closer to the door and voting with their feet.. Well.. Let them continue to act as they wish..

 

But, I have been told they kept him on the nomination list for SM, along with Fiance for the Troop CC.. I know fiance will not give up the cub scout CC, but would now not run for the Troop CC.. Son though is still running for SM..

 

If he wins, husband will probably not leave either.. Of course fiance will not leave (although she will be ASM & not on committee)..

 

Now, if they don't want son to be SM, and they wanted to stonewall him.. Why didn't they take him off that based on the age requirements, and let him have the vote, figuring he would probably vote for his father if he wasn't voting for himself.. That decision would have probably made a little ripple seeing the 19 yo is CS CC.. But I don't think as much of a ripple..

[Twocubdad]

Perhaps your should get Beavah or NJ to review the statute of fraud for you. Illegal contracts are unenforceable. Moose and FianceMoose were hosed when they agreed to do jobs they couldn't legally register for.

 

A word on tactics. Threatening to quit as pack CC, troop outings chair and ASM only works if you make the others aware of the threat. Threatening to quit but not telling anyone is just pouting. Call the COR and tell her plainly that if Moose and MooseFiance don't get votes, they will loose the three volunteers who seem to be olding both units together. Whether or not that's smart/proper/ethical/legal/Scoutlike is another questions.

 

Last, I don't have a problem with MooseDad sticking up for his 19-y-o son and future daughter-in-law. The idea that parents should stand back and let the boy learn to handle things himself is a Boy Scout program element, based in part on the idea that everyone involved has the best interest of the boy at heart. This is spilling over into the real-world arena. If your son had a business, legal or personal issue and his father had the ability and/or resources to help, I would expect him to do so.

[Beavah]

Perhaps your should get Beavah or NJ to review the statute of fraud for you. Illegal contracts are unenforceable. Moose and FianceMoose were hosed when they agreed to do jobs they couldn't legally register for.

 

AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

 

For... The...Last....Time....

 

The BSA is not the law, the government, or a regulatory agency. Volunteerin' for da BSA is not some permutation of contract law or employment law or collective bargaining agreement. It is a children's program. It is ONLY a children's program. And da law, wonderful mistress that she is, is only the law. She doesn't belong in all aspects of life or society. Yeh don't bring your mistress to da cub scout meeting.

 

I agree with all da other stuff TwoCubDad says, though!

 

Beavah

[moosetracker]

Welcome to my roller coaster ride.. Or is this my nightmare? Will they wont they, Yes, maybe Yes, maybe No, No.. Most definately No.. Well then again, maybe Yes..

 

I am a little bit more sure my husband will be jumping off the train, may not be before the wreck though.. The emailed out the list of Nominations like I said. What I didn't say was on the email, they stated those committee members who could not be present could email in their vote..

 

So my husband did not want everyone wasting their vote on him, when he was not running.. So he called them, and over a voice message, told them that he was not running, and further more, he would stay to the end of the school then would be leaving the troop.. I asked if he still would if his son did win SM.. He says yes, he will come to the troop on and off for advisory, if our son asked him, but would no longer be an officially registered in any position of the troop..

 

Yes.. Yes.. I am still crossing my fingers that things do not change, but.. Yes...

[Oak Tree]

It's true that people can be concerned about the rules. I think the COR could easily manage the set up and yet still follow the official rules.

 

Rules: The COR/IH picks the SM. In order to give the COR a good idea of whom to recommend to the IH, the COR will take a vote of people who are active on the committee, regardless of their registration.

 

Rules: You must be 21 to be on the committee. Nevertheless, you can have non-committee people attend committee meetings. They can still be active on committee items. Work can be delegated to anyone (in most cases) - and the official registered CC can easily delegate all functions of CC except the title.

 

The weird part of the current situation is that the COR appeared to be ok with the current arrangement, all the way up until things got nasty.

 

If your husband or son was elected as SM, they would be in the perfect position to make all the changes they want. Seems like an odd time to walk away.

[Lisabob]

Mother Moose said (re: Moose Son): "Basically time will have to mellow the feeling my son sees in black & white, and can not see shades of gray.. He has toned it down in the last 6 months, but it is still too soon for them to change that opinion."

 

 

And this is a good reason for Moose Son to really think hard about whether he is in a good position to be SM, whether now (as a 20 year old when he isn't technically able to hold the position), or in September (as a 21 year old).

 

It is very common for young adults to see the world in all-or-nothing, black & white, terms. Sometimes, that is also how most other reasonable people would see a given situation. Usually though, there really are shades of grey. While teens and early twenty-somethings often struggle to see shades of grey, that is part of the job of a good scoutmaster, to help the boys mature past the all/nothing mindset. Hard to do, if one hasn't gotten there yet, oneself.

 

Not meant as a slam on Moose Son, who is to be commended for his (and fiance's) commitment to scouting. Just my 2 cents.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Perhaqps it's worthwhile to review the BSA's official recommendation on how to recruit unit leaders. This is from "Foundations For Selecting Unit Leaders":

 

 

Foundations for Selecting Unit Leaders

 

 

 

1 Hold a chartered organization briefing. The head of the chartered

organization meets with a representative of the local council to discuss the

process of recruiting and selecting quality leaders. It is important at this time

for the chartered organization to understand its responsibilities for operating

the BSA units, particularly its responsibility for identifying and recruiting new

leaders.

Action. The head of the chartered organization appoints a task force of two

or three knowledgeable and influential people from the organization to

recruit a high-caliber individual to serve as Cubmaster, Scoutmaster, Coach,

Advisor, or other unit leader.

2 Hold a task force meeting. The head of the task force selects a date

and time for the meeting and notifies task force members.

Action. (a) Review the BSA Mission Statement and the traits of a unit leader.

(b) Develop a list of prospects who fit the traits of a potential leader. Be prepared

with lists of chartered organization members and other prospects.

Choose prospects who live up to the values of the Scout Oath and Law in their

daily lives. © Rank the prospects. (d) Clear the list of prospects with the

head of the chartered organization before making any contact. (e) The task

force calls on the primary prospect. At least one person in this group should

be able to influence the prospects decision.

3 Make an appointment with the prospect. This should be done by the

task force member who knows and has the respect of the prospect.

Include the prospects spouse.

 

 

The unit committee doesn't have a role in such selections unless delegated that responsibility by the chartered organization.

 

There are no age limits for serving on such a committee.

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

This is the son again I made my own account.

 

So everyone is aware, I love this troop and the boys in it. I am an Eagle Scout from this troop and people need to stop looking at the stupid age rules. Between the ages of 18 and 21 BSA really over looks people and sticks them in limbo....they leave you with Merit badge Councilor and ASM. ASM in our troop means we get to sit on our ass and look pretty while our scoutmaster ignores us and tries very hard to ignore us and not to use us & anybody can be a merit badge councilor- thats a part time gig.

 

Furthermore I have never let age stop me and I never will. I right now sit on the district advancement committee and have done so for a few years. And have recently gotten my fianc on the board as well. I also am one of the districts trainers and have run more than one training day. My Father and I are the 2 most Trained leaders in our troop and we have both even taken Woodbadge Training.

 

Now if you tell me that I should stick with doing what Im allowed to do based off of my age what in the above list would there be. Maybe the training but nothing else.

 

Nobody has ever had an issue with us being in the positions before this or any other troop and we have done very well at our jobs. In fact when I took the job I wasnt given anything but a title and had to learn it all from scratch and collect all the information....now there is a solid book with health forms permission slips contact info and anything else you may ever possibly need in that position including rules and regulations for outings.

 

 

 

Like I said I love the Troop and the boys and I know I have a lot of support there from other people, unfortunately the people I dont have support from are the CC,COR, and SM but the SM hasnt liked me since I joined the troop as a boy. And the COR is Famous for her tunnel vision and will run people over if she thinks it will help her achieve her goal- it makes her a formidable lawyer. And the CC has no issues with me but hates any form of conflict so will not go against the COR.

 

I really want to be able to get past the bull to make the scouting program better for the boys and give them everything they deserve....they deserve everything scouting has to offer and thy just arent getting that right now.

(This message has been edited by MoosetheItalianBlacksmith)

[teacher/scout]

This is the future daughter in law who has decided to put her 2 cents in.

 

Lisabob-I rather disagree with your it is very common for young adults to see the world in all-or-nothing, black & white, terms In todays society our young adults are more receptive to ideas and look at all sides of things instead of focusing on their own belief, in fact, it tends to be the older generation who get stuck in their ways and only want their way or the highway. Our situation is a perfect example. The adults who do not want us to vote are very clear in what they want and in our time trying to negotiate they have not listened to what ideas we have. If there have been disagreements within the committee about when health forms should be due back to me I make a compromise for the date they want and the date I came up with. Both my fiance and I have always been able to look at the grey areas and make rational and compromising decisions. So please, before you automatically assume that the young adults of todays world see white and black, take a step back and listen to what we have to say.

 

Something to think about-earlier this scout year our COR decided to talk with every adult to get their opinions on what needs to be corrected within the troop-everyone including us because she wanted to make sure our voices were heard. So we told our COR that we would like more respect given by the other adults because our ideas are pushed out of the way, we are ignored and many go with the stereotype that young people are foolish and care about themselves etc etc etc. She wrote it down, agreed with us. Then this whole thing goes down and she turns her opinion around and disrespects who we are as people and everything we discussed earlier in the year.

 

Well we are about to leave lets see how it ends up.

 

[Beavah]

SeattlePioneer, that's da stuff from how you set a foundation for a new unit, not how yeh select leadership for an existing unit, eh? And it's only general guidance. If yeh want da general guidance for an existing unit, there's a stretch in the Troop Committee Handbook as well as a supplementary module on da topic. But it all comes down to the same thing, eh? The committee or some committee should be involved and do the vetting/checking/selecting, and the COR should approve (or not).

 

Moosetracker, I see what yeh mean about young Moose. I actually like young fellows like that, and think they make good leaders for boys. Teenage boys need a real sense of black and white, because in their minds and in reality they are facin' some black and white decisions. Do I use drugs? Do I sleep with my girlfriend? Do I get drunk with my friends?

 

The Scout Oath and Law in the end are statements of black and white.

 

Young Moose, when us old farts talk about "grey", what we really mean is "tactics." Yep, there is such thing as right and wrong, black and white. But then there's also such a thing as successful and unsuccessful tactics. It's not enough just to holler about wrong, it's necessary to defeat it. And that often means avoidin' squabbles, choosing your time, layin' the groundwork, being polite, and all the rest. You're quite right that capability has almost nothing to do with age (and where it does, it's us aged folks who are less capable). But perhaps tellin' the COR she's a manipulative troll ain't the best tactics. Yeh want her on your side in order to do what's best for the program.

 

Your mom seems to be tired of the program and wants to get out, but that doesn't have to be true for you and your fiancee. I appreciate your loyalty, and I'm sure the boys do, too. Be friendly, courteous, and kind to your fellow adults, even those who don't reciprocate, and I reckon you'll have a greater chance of doin' good things.

 

Good luck tonight.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums. One of you has a name that is longer than I want to write so I won't.

I'll just add this: I have long maintained a personal policy that has served me well:

 

I never make threats. I consider threats to be something made by people who are cowards and are rarely likely to follow through. I have mostly been right.

 

Also, I never give warnings. They are most often viewed as threats and give your adversary an undeserved piece of information. Just decide what your course of action is and then do it. Don't posture or threaten or pluff up your feathers to make yourself look larger than you really are. Just take action and then get on with life. Don't even look back to see if the bridge is on fire or if there are wounded on the beach. It doesn't matter.