New CC with a question...

[tessnjohn1]

I am the Committee Chair for our Pack. I'm not ashamed to say that I'm new to this. Tonight (Tuesday, April 12th, 2011) we had our pack meeting. I had called a meeting to be held to vote people into office and structure our committee following our pack meeting. (we have in place the CC, CM, Treasurer.) However, the Cub Master and Asst. Cub Master talked over me, and did something I believe to be "jumping the chain of command." I did not get a chance to vote or speak at this meeting I called.

The issue at hand is one concerning our Bear Den Leader. Our Bear Den Leader is commendable with exemplary involvement with the boys in our scout family. He has gone above and beyond the "call of duty" when it comes to the needs of our boys, and their families. Our pack just recently had a tragic loss. Our Webelos Den Leader lost her baby at 37 weeks pregnant. He not only encouraged our pack to help her, but also volunteered a LOT of personal time to her and her family. During her leave of absence, due to her loss, our Bear Den Leader stepped up to help our Webelos Den. The only mark agents him is that there is some friction between him, and the Wolf Den Leader.

At the very opening of tonight's meeting, the Cub Master addressed all the parents (who are not part of the committee)for their attention, and asked our Bear Den Leader to step down, or be forcibly removed. None of this was discussed with me, nor was there a meeting called with the Charter Committee and myself about this. There was no vote, even among current existing committee members and/or the other Den Leaders and parents.

When the CM closed the meeting, he and his wife told me that there was no reason to vote on committee members, because we didn't have enough people to fill the positions, and it's the end of the year. We had 8 parents that came specifically to fill positions needed, and only 2 positions that actually needed to be filled!

I hope you can guide me, as Committee Chair, on how to handle this situation. There are a few other concerns I have, as well. Our ACM is our treasurer, self proclaimed secretary, the CM of a different pack, and wife to our pack's CM. Is this allowed? I'm so confused! It just seems to me that the meeting I called tonight was ran by the CM and his wife, and turned into a three-ring circus! What can I do?

 

[Pack212Scouter]

Hmmm....alot of things going on here. First a few background questions. Has there not been a CC or an active CC for a while? In other words is the CM used to having to run everything? Does your Pack conduct business with all parents or with a Committee? A lot of small Packs tend to leave all decisions up to the parents who attend. The BSA system is for a Pack Committee to make decisions that support the Pack's program. The Committee is the decision making authority for the Pack (with the CO's blessing) and by strick BSA guidelines, the CM & ACM are not part of it. Many Packs do elect to give them a seated position on the Pack Committee though. As Committee Chair, you are the "President" of the Committee and resposible for leading them through their decisions.

 

You didn't mention the reason that the CM gave for wanting a leader removed, so it is not possible to respond if that was an appropriate reason. Reguardless of this, what you descibed is not the correct way for doing so. Only your Charter Orginization (or the Charter Org Representative on their behalf), the local BSA Council or National BSA has the authority to remove a Scouting volunteer from their position.

 

As for the CM and his wife. There are no hard and fast rules about who can hold which positions, although it is not generally a good idea to have to treasurer as the Spouse of someone responsible for "spending" Pack money. This is not always possible, but good to avoid. An individual CAN be a registered volunteer in multiple units, so it is allowed to have another Pack's CM hold a position in your Pack, they just are not permitted to be registered for multiple positions in the same unit (although functionally, this often happens off paper).

 

Ok, all that said, you need to decide just how much of this battle that you want to pick. You may wish to get your Charter Organization Rep or your District Executive involved in this. If you have a Unit Commissioner, you might contact them to see if they will have a friendly sit down with you all and discuss proper procedures and duties for Pack Committees.

 

In the end though, before you pull any triggers, first look at this situation you face and what you can do. If you have a showdown with the CM and ACM, you may need to be prepared to step into that position until you can find new ones.

[ScoutNut]

First of all, don't hold Pack Leader Meetings (Committee Meetings) on the same evenings as Pack Meetings. It makes the night way to long. They should ideally be held on a different evening, between one month's Pack meeting, and the next month's. This lets you discuss what went right, and wrong, at the last Pack meeting, and gives you time to plan ahead for the next one.

 

There is no BSA rule against a person registering in more than one Pack. Does the CM have sons in both Packs?

 

While it is not against any BSA rules for the wife of the CM to also be the Pack Treasurer, it is generally not a good idea as it skirts the checks and balances you would have when the Treasurer is not related in any way to the CM, CC, or COR.

 

Did the CM say why he wanted the Bear leader removed?

 

What did the Bear leader do? What did his den parents do/say?

 

Who is your Charter Organization(CO)? What does the head of the CO, and/or your Charter Organization Representative(COR), have to say about this?

 

Bottom line is that a "vote" is not needed to either fill positions, or let a volunteer go. However, a CM can NOT "hire", or "fire", a Pack leader. Only the Committee Chairman, the COR, or the Head of the CO, can do that.

 

You said that you have 8 people who are willing to register, and help with the Pack. What skills do they have? What positions do you feel each would be the best to fill?

 

Would one of the 8 make a good Treasurer? How about a good Secretary? With the CM's wife also taking on the role of CM for a different Pack, I would think that having the position of ACM in your Pack would be plenty enough extra work for her.

 

Do you have an Advancement Chair? How about a BALOO trained Camping Chair? Summer Event Chairs? Fundraising Chair?

 

Make up a list of the 8 volunteers you have, and 8 positions that you feel they would do a good job at.

 

Get together with your COR. Find out first if the COR had any knowledge of what the CM was planning with the Bear den leader. Find out if the COR, and the CO will back you in bringing back the Bear leader (if he has not already pulled his son, and himself, out of the Pack). Then talk to the COR about positions for the eight volunteers (keep in mind that you might need a new Bear leader). Get the COR's approval, and the approval of the CO, on ALL position changes (Treasurer/Secretary), and new positions.

 

Get together with the CM and talk to him about why he wanted the Bear leader gone. Let him know that both you, and the COR want the Bear leader to continue. Talk to him about how you feel his wife is taking on more than she can handle, and how you want to spread her added responsibilities around to others.

 

Then call all of your registered Pack volunteers and invite them to a Pack Leaders Meeting. At this meeting, make it plain to EVERYONE that YOU are in charge of, and leading the meeting. Discuss the personnel changes you have in mind. Once again, there is no need to vote. Just about everything can be settled, and a consensus reached, by a good, level-headed, discussion. But keep in mind, barring any BIG problems brought up, your signature, and that of the COR, are the ones required on the BSA Adult Application.

 

It sounds like the CM has been running the whole show on his own, and is loath to give up any of what he perceives as his "power". You and the CM need to learn to get along, and work TOGETHER, not pull "rank", or push each other around, for the good of the youth in your Pack.

 

You might consider calling your council and getting contact information on your District Commissioner. Your District Commissioner should be able to assign your Pack a Unit Commissioner to help you (or to help you himself).

[tessnjohn1]

I'm sorry that I did not provide enough information as to the reason behind the CM's decision to remove our Bear Den Leader. At our PWD, there was an incident concerning our Bear Den Leader, and another den leader. Our Bear Den Leader walked outside, and away from the situation, and this other guy followed him yelling at him. (I have several witnesses.) When our CM announced that he was pulling our Bear Den Leader, he said it was because "a singular scout is afraid of him." At this, I had SEVERAL parents give me the "WHAT?!?!" stair. After the "meeting" was over, all but one of the parents came to me and told me what a wonderful leader they thought our BDL was... and how they couldn't figure out what had just happened. To my knowledge, there have been no other "altercations" with our BDL, nor was there any "pull-a-side" talks with him. He is remarkable with our boys, and I have SEVERAL parents that are willing to testify to that fact.

About our pack... our pack was started 7moths ago. Our CM's wife linked her pack and ours to give ours a little kick start. She said that they would be separating at the end of this month. We are still not very well established. That was the reason I called for a meeting... so we could set up our committee. We have 6 boys right now, and we're working hard to recruit more. Parent involvement is AWESOME! We even have two grandparents (Eagle Scout, and Scout for Life) involved. The meeting to set up the committee was time and date chosen by the CM and his wife. (as I said, I can't seem to get a word in edgewise.) All we have set up for the committee is the CC (myself), SEC (ACM), and TRES (ACM). The ACM has "self promoted" herself to handle all the other positions as well. That is a lot for one person, and I have so many wonderful parents that want to be involved, and are willing to help! Tonight, I was told that it was not important to set up the committee at this time, since the year is coming to a close. In my mind, it's all the more reason to get set up! Getting set up now, means that we won't be scrambling around, rushing the boys, and being unorganized. The summer would give the committee time to plan the next years events. I know I can't have one person filling all the positions in the committee, as the ACM is trying to. Kind of makes it unfair to so many people in so many ways.

The point is, I called for the meeting to set up our committee. The AMC (CM's Wife)chose the date and time for me, and then they (CM & ACM) walked all over the meeting. None got appointed, and everyone was upset at the end of the night because of the public display of dictatorship by the CM for calling our BDL out for nothing. (the sad thing is I had pretty much figured out who would be the best people to fill the positions needed.) There was no warning, no talking with anyone.

When I got home, I contacted our BDL, to tell him how sorry I was about what happened. He says he still really wants to be the BDL, to encourage his son and the other boys in their scouting adventure. (could be because I'm pregnant, but I was almost in tears listing to the poor guy!) He admitted he had gotten frustrated at another DL (not in our pack) at the PWD, but he walked away so as to avoid an altercation in front of the boys. (again, I have witnesses.) The crazy thing is our BDL actually talked with the DL he had problems with, and the two of them smoothed it out. But... THIS happened almost 2 MONTHS ago! The three boys in the Bear Den are completely distraught! They loved their leader, and I can't blame them because he's an awesome guy!... Quick to make them laugh, always there to help, and makes the meetings a LOT of fun for the boys. He did such a great job with the wood badge.

I don't know for sure if I have the power to over ride the CM on this one. The CM still hasn't told me who the COR is... HECK, I don't think we even have one yet! LOL! I just know that the boys are happy with our BDL, as are the parents of those boys. I'm thinking of sending an email to the Buckeye Council concerning this matter. From my opinion, we don't need this kind of drama/crap going on when we're trying to get this new pack up and running well. And since I don't know who our COR is, I don't have any other place to turn to other than Council.

I just want to make sure that things are handled properly, and (most importantly) the safety and happiness of the boys is at the forefront of this endeavor. I am willing to do what it takes for the boys safety and happiness. I also don't want to "tip the apple cart" if I'm not following proper protocol.

I hope I explained the situation a little more clearly. Sorry I didn't get it all right the first time around. I was a little frustrated, and my fingers typed faster than my brain was turning. LOL! Thanks for your patience.

 

[The Blancmange]

Ditto what ScoutNut said. It's not the CM's job. It should be the CC working in concert with the COR. You need to work with your COR to settle this issue down. The CM should be trained on how leadership selection is supposed to work.

 

I don't know how the CM plans on effectuating this change, other than by bullying people into thinking they are or are not in a particular position, because the only signatures called for before an adult app. is turned in are the CC and COR or IH. No place for the CM to sign.

[eaglescout1996]

I concur with everything that has been said.

 

Please contact your District Executive, he or she will know who the COR and IH are and can point you in the right direction. Ask them for the contact information for your District Commissioner, so you can have a Unit Commissioner assigned. One should have been assigned from the begining to help mentor your unit leaders through the first year or so.

 

It sounds like your thinking is on the right track, put together a committee and take the next few months to work out next year's events and get out there and recruit! Great program brings in the boys!

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles, and I hope everything works out for your and your Pack.

[ScoutNut]

A brand new Pack, whose Committee Chair(CC) has no knowledge of who owns the Pack (your Charter Organization-CO), or who the Charter Organization Representative(COR) is, is in deep trouble.

 

Add to that, the fact that the Pack has only 6 registered boys, yet the Cubmaster(CM) has decided to try and lose the Pack 1-3 boys by trashing the Bear den leader, and your fledgling Pack is about to self-destruct.

 

You need to get a copy of your Charter - TODAY.

 

Call your council service center. They can get you the copy. They can also give you contact info for your District Commissioner. Call him for help with your situation as soon as possible.

[Beavah]

Yah, tesnjohn1, welcome!

 

It sounds like you're a small start-up pack, eh? Generally speaking, a new pack gets started because one person or a small group led by one person "make it happen". My guess from what you are saying is that this was the Cubmaster (and his wife). Those startup leaders often feel a LOT of ownership, eh? Yeh have to feel a real commitment to invest da time to start a unit. They often have a vision for where they want to go. That, too, is necessary.

 

One of da consequences of that, though, is that they have a hard time letting go and making the transition from startup to "regular". Sharing the vision and responsibility with others. That can be a hard transition for 'em, and it takes some time.

 

Your pack right now is too small, eh? It won't survive an adult fight. That means yeh can't afford right now to loose either the Bear Den Leader or the Cubmaster. It's very, very unfortunate that the CM went solo and public on his announcement, but that's the nature of startup people, eh? They're used to just acting when they see an issue. That's why they start new units.

 

So I think as CC you have da hardest job here, but yeh also seem to have the right personality for it. Yeh need to sit with da CM and the BDL and pour water on the fire. I'd meet separately with each, and then together. The CM needs to understand that the pack is slowly transitioning from statup to normal operations, and that means more of a role for the committee and other parents so the CM can focus on program. That's goin' to be the hardest. He needs to understand that's a good thing, not a bad one. It shows he has been successful, even if things aren't always done perfectly. It takes a deft touch. He also needs to appreciate that just solo-firing the BDL means the death of the pack.

 

Your goal is to get 'em both to shake hands and move forward. Anything else, including intervention by the Chartered Organization to resolve the petty adult dispute, will mean the death of the pack.

 

In your efforts to make this happen, yeh have a few allies. Yeh have someone assigned to your pack as Unit Commissioner, as well as a District Commissioner. These are BSA volunteers who are "outside" advisors who can help provide some neutral, objective advice. Call your council office to get their contact information. You might consider meeting with them and the COR (whose contact information you can also get from the council office) as a first step to get the lay of the land.

 

After yeh get through the current crisis, yeh have to gradually move the pack toward more "regular" operations, eh? Some you can just do as CC. Add volunteers, hold committee meetings. Don't override da CM, support the CM. Some time in the next year, I'd try to gently separate the Treasurer job from anyone related to the CM or CC. That's just good practice for any pack of any size.

 

Practically speaking, as CC yeh have to agree to replacing the BDL, or be removed as CC by the COR. So yeh have that as an initial lever. But your goal is to get the adults to calm down and behave like adults, working together for the kids. Yeh can't afford to have an adult shoot-out in a pack your size.

 

Beavah

[Scoutfish]

I'm not going to even try to pretend I have a soplution for your problem, but I will clarify something in the simplest terms:

 

AS CC, YOU ARE IN CHASRGE! You hold "MORE" authority over the CM and ACM as to who will be a leader or who will be removed. You cal committee meetings. You preside over meetings.

 

Technically, the CM and ACM have squat for voting rights.

 

Now having said that, in our pack, our committee metings are for committee and leaders to vote in. WE allow any76 parent to attend and watch.

 

All leadership positions are welcome to bring up, voice opinions and vote on pack matters.

 

WE do things together as there is much insight and knowledge within the leadership that the Committee just does not have.

 

The committee has the advantage of not being too deep and personal and chance making pack decidions based on den feelings.

 

 

Now, above, I said " you hold "MORE" authority ..."

 

This does not realy mean you have or that you are the upmost authority, it just means you have more than the CM or ACM will dream about.

 

In truth, the COR is above you and hoilds the authority ( in representing the CO) to drop any leader and approve leaders for position.

 

It is the job of the CM ( per BSA) to help and work with the committee inj finding suitable leaders as they are needed.

 

In reality, you need to work together on this kind of stuff. But technically, the CM ( and all the other leaders) works under or for you!

 

You run and head up meetings, not the CM or ACM

 

But, the CM is the one who handles the scouting stuff, Scouting programs and it's his job to make sure the other leaders are running good den programs.

 

And oner of the things I love about being a CubMaster is: At pack meetings, I get to be the one who acts up, jokes, sings, and gets the scouts all riled up!

[Beavah]

In reality, you need to work together on this kind of stuff. But technically, the CM ( and all the other leaders) works under or for you!

 

Nah, not really. And not da right way to think about it.

 

Everyone works for the Chartered Organization. Works together on behalf of the Chartered Organization.

 

The Committee serves either as the support "staff" compared with the unit leader/assistant unit leader front "line", or da committee serves as the "board of directors" to the unit leaders' "executives". The former setup is more common in units, especially cub packs; the latter is closer to the BSA's model.

 

Any way you cut it, the CC on his own has no particular authority, and the unit leader does not work for him/her. When it comes to program, da CC and committee should support the unit leader. When it comes to changing leadership, the committee (or some subgroup thereof) is empowered to make recommendations on changing leadership to the COR, and da unit leader should support them.

 

There's no express role for the unit leader in the process of choosing assistant unit leaders, but only a fool would not strongly consider the input of the unit leader and other assistants, and only the heir to the throne of the kingdom of fools would not include da unit leader and assistants in the process in some way.

 

Beavah

 

[Scoutfish]

 

 

Yeah, that's p[retty much what I said.

 

Toe may toe.....tah mah toe..Still a red thingy that gives you heartburn!

 

I said : "Now, above, I said " you hold "MORE" authority ..."

 

This does not realy mean you have or that you are the upmost authority, it just means you have more than the CM or ACM will dream about.

 

In truth, the COR is above you and hoilds the authority ( in representing the CO) to drop any leader and approve leaders for position.

 

It is the job of the CM ( per BSA) to help and work with the committee inj finding suitable leaders as they are needed."

 

And the standard orgazational chart shows the CM, ACM and the rest of the leadership ( including pack trainer) under the CC

 

In our pack, the CC handles Buisness and admin stuff, and The CM ( me) and ACM handle scouting stuff and make sure the leaders are doing what they need to do.

 

But as CM myself, I cannot fire a leader or call for him to step down. I can bring it up at a committee meeting, and state my case, but thats as far as it goes.

 

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Beavah,

 

 

>

 

 

 

I agree that's how things ought to work.

 

 

>

 

 

 

That's not my understanding of how the actual power relationship works.

 

A CC has a good deal of authority if they are doing their job. They can call committee meetings, set the agenda, decide who is recognized and who to invite to attend.

 

A CC who wants to replace a Scoutmaster or Cubmaster can sign an adult leader application to appoint a new person and recommend that the Chartered Organization Rep sign it. That's all it takes to replace someone. And a good many Committee Chair are also the COR, and they can decide on their own initiative when to replace someone and with who.

 

Of course acting arbitrarily, without good reason and without the support of other unit leaders, parents and IH is not something to be done lightly. But that's the way it's done as I understand it.

 

One point I'm vague about. Suppose a CC & COR have an adult leader they wish to fire, but don't have someone to replace them immedietely. Exactly how would those two worthies suspend or remove such a leader?

[Beavah]

A CC who wants to replace a Scoutmaster or Cubmaster can sign an adult leader application to appoint a new person and recommend that the Chartered Organization Rep sign it. That's all it takes to replace someone

 

Yah, SP, you're confusing a form with a process here, eh?

 

The CC signs the form representing a decision by the committee. He or she is signing on behalf of the committee, not on their own authority. Just like any board of directors, eh? The Chairman of the Board does have some important roles in setting the agenda, calling and leading meetings, etc. (dependin' on da bylaws). But on his own, the Chairman of the Board doesn't have da ability to make decisions like replacing the CEO. That requires a vote of the board. Same here.

 

Of course, as you say, a COR acting on behalf of the CO can act unilaterally on his/her own authority. But that has nuthin' to do with whether or not he/she holds the CC position as well.

 

To remove someone without appointing a replacement, the COR just sends a letter to the council registrar to inform the council that the person has been removed.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[BadenP]

 

I agree with most of what Beavah says. Having your CC who is also your COR really makes it a whole lot easier to deal with these kind of problems and has the added benefit of having your CO actively involved in your unit via the COR. As the CC/COR for my crew the last year plus we had a small problem with one of our adult leaders which the committee was able to deal with quickly and positively to a happy ending. Beav is so right when he says that the committee has to work together as a team otherwise you wind up with seperate factions fighting for power and nothing gets done. You know the old saying "Lead by example" has a lot of significance for the situation being discussed in this thread.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Beavah,

 

As I noted earlier, a consensus view that someone needs to go is certainly to be desired if it has to be done.

 

But that could be just as well an informal decision making process with the CC hearing complaints from parents and leaders and making their own inquiries.

 

It COULD be a formal process with a hearing before a meeting of the committee and a vote making a recommendation. But that's not necessary. It might be desireable to give an offending person a hearing, or it might not.

 

In some cases, perhaps quite a few, a CC might wish to sit down with the offending person and talk to them one on one, or perhaps with another committee member as well, and talk informally about problems and issues. If someone is suspended from their position, it might be kind to spare them a committee meeting where all the complaints are aired.

 

Deciding how to proceed requires good judgment on the part of the CC.

 

That's my assessment, anyway.