Old vs New style of NYLT

[Eagle92]

My understanding is that like WB21C which invites all leaders; Boy Scout, Sea Scout, Cub Scout, and Venturer, so too does NYLT allow any Boy Scout, Sea Scout, and Venturer to attend 17 and under. 18 and older the Sea Scout and Venturer should take WB21C (another reason why my gut reaction was they are identical).

 

 

BUT be advised that Sea Scouts still have their specialized training courses: Sea Scout Advance Leader (SeAL) Training for ALL Sea Scouts, Sea Bagde and Sea Badge Underway for all officers (leaders). Sea Scouts probably still have their own advance specialized training because A) We are the smallest program and tend to be overlooked by everyone, pros and vols alike, B) few outside of the Sea Scout community truly understand the program, and therefore leave things alone, and C) Sea Scouts tend to hold on to traditions a lot longer, and while SEAL did come out during the Sea Explorer period, (SEAL Training orignally stood for Sea EXPLORER Advance Leader training) it was very popular and was absorbed into the traditions, and D) long time Sea Scout leaders re crusty old fogeys who adhere to traditions and complain even more loudly than pre-WB21C WBers as evidenced by all the threads on the changes to the Sea Scout uniform when they came out a few years back, and how most ships ignored them and kept the traditions, i.e. "bugs" on hats, unit numbers, etc. I'm one of the crusty old fogeys and have my old ship's "blue-white dress" uniform still in the closet despite it not being the current official uniform.

[KC9DDI]

I'd like to try to address the issue of "surprise" in terms of the course content not being revealed ahead of time to the participants.

 

We do not give the participants a copy of the whole weekly schedule on Day 1. This is mainly to help simulate the "real troop" atmosphere. Each day the patrols elect a new patrol leader, who attends a PLC meeting around lunch time. At each PLC meeting, the schedule for the next 24 hours is shared with the PLs, who then take it back to their patrol and guide the patrol in preparing for the next day's worth of activities. There is also at least one activity that comes to mind that just will not work if the scouts know about it ahead of time.

 

That said, we don't keep the participants completely in the dark. Before the course starts, we have a "pre-course briefing" session with all the participants and their parents, where we give a general overview of what the course will consist of, and what kinds of activities to expect, so that everyone comes prepared. But, we don't share a detailed hour-by-hour breakdown of the schedule except during the PLC meetings.

 

It sounds like some councils might take this to a further extreme, and I can see where that can produce some unhappy scouts. But, that certainly doesn't seem to be the way National intends for the course to be run anymore.

[moosetracker]

KC9 - I wouldn't even call that surprise.. If your there for leadership training & you get leadership training, it is no surprise, even if you don't know hour by hour how the course will be doing this.. What you describe is how woodbadge is set up.. I never called the course a surprise, or felt left out..

 

So maybe the surprise element in our Trail-to-Eagle, as in "You might have thought you were signing up for this, but surprise you are getting not this, but something we are not explaining to you, but just follow us and ask no questions.." was not a product of pulling this piece off of the NYLT course..

[KC9DDI]

moose - I agree, was just trying to maybe show the origin of some rumors that NYLT deceives or surprises participants.

 

Am I understanding you right that your council operates by advertising a program a certain way (maybe an advancement-focused camp judging by the "Trail To Eagle" name), and then when scouts arrive for this camp they find out that they're getting NYLT instead?? That certainly doesn't sound like a good idea at all, and I can't think of any justification for doing it that way. I'm surprised the council goes along with that. Or am I misunderstanding the situation?

[moosetracker]

They had a wonderful Trail to Eagle program, run by someone we knew.. My son went to provisional camps for years and knew of the T2E program, and how it was run by provisional camping next door to them.. The year he went, the guy who ran it retired from it, someone came in with a nifty idea and proceeded with it, by letting everyone think they were getting the same T2E as run for years.. Waited for parents to drop off kids & leave.. Then SURPRISE!! Still don't know what they were attempting to accomplish, they did lots of hikeing, cope course, do service projects for camp (labor not leadership capacity) were forced to take two non-eagle required courses.. They did Leadership presentations.. They also chose like 5 Eagle required badges, and wether you took them or not ALL had to take these 5 badges over again. Those who had already took them, were force to sit quietly in the corner and not interact or help those who need the badges.. They were marched around all week not knowing were they were going or what they were doing until they arrived, fed peanutbutter & jelly, and other quick foods, as they couldn't make their meals or go to the dining hall for meals.. OH, and they were not allowed to phone home..

 

My son had done the pre-requisits for the MB's he wanted to take, they never did those MB's and took then lost all the work he did on the prerequists without ever signing him off on his blue cards.

 

The next year they announced at round table they were going to run T2E the same way, and did not recieve good feedback.. They did change the next year back to the old style, then dumped the program, and haven't had T2E for about 5 years now..

 

My son took T2E at a different camp the next year, and never went to another provisional at that camp again, because our council refused to even apoligize for the mess..

[Chrispy-chip]

It really isn't hard to deal with girls in NYLT, if you look at White Stag they have been successful, with a coed group for years, and really have thrived, 300 campers 70 staff, last year so it isn't super difficult, all we need to do is not let u feel as I they are a problem and if they are in venturing they are tough enough to deal with guys, also if you ever been around scouts when they are & aren't around girls they actually behave and try harder to do well with them around, the biggest issue would just be that there are girls.

 

Also the purpose of leadership development is to give them leadership skills not tell them how to run a troop. And what NYLT does is it helps them with leadership skills through the eyes of a boy scout troop. Then with venturing there it forces us to teach leadership and not troop running. And also just by teChing them how to run q troop it doesn't really move us in the direction of the BSA mission, since they cant lead a troop forever.

[moosetracker]

thanks Chrispy-chip and welcome to the forum!

 

I have no issues with girls myself (being of that gender my entire life).. But LDS is LDS, and from what I hear females & males do not mix in certain events, Boy Scout events is one of them.. Not sure what from them is acceptable mixing and what is not..

 

We also had a SM years back, and when the Ventures wanted to tag along with the Boy Scout troop rather then forge their own way. His complaint was partly about them forming and starting up without input from the troop Leaders, and therefore this started not as a joint event and then was not going to be forced down his throat as his responsibility.. His biggest objection was that he signed up for just the Boy Scouts and did not want the co-ed mixing of the sexes due to the chemistry reaction.. Some of the girls from the Crew would hang around a meeting because they had a brother in it, and we did loose half the boys attention (including SPL & ASPL) as they flirted and vied for the girls attention.. So he had reason for his concerns..

 

That is the only reason, I brought those items up as possible reasons someone may not want to include the Venturers into their NYLT..

 

So are you in a Venturing Crew, are you on the NYLT staff..

 

I was thinking, we do invite the Venturing Staff to Woodbadge, we have a few in attendance. Yet we still do the training by forming Patrols, and organizing and working as a Boy Scout troop. So if Woodbadge did not change the terminology for the Ventures, maybe KC9DDI is over complicating things by thinking that the NYLT course needs to change the terminology..

[KC9DDI]

Chrispy- Welcome. I'm going to nit-pick with you a little bit. NYLT has historically been part of the continuum of youth leader training at the Boy Scout level, supporting the troop Scoutmaster in his/her obligation to develop quality youth leaders for his/her troop. Sure, we're not just telling the participants how to run a Boy Scout troop, we're immersing them in a model Scout troop, and giving them the tools they need to be successful in their own troops. Yes, of course these leadership skills are applicable outside of the Boy Scout context, but I think the primary purpose is to develop quality Boy Scout (and now Venturing) youth leaders. I think that's pretty consistent with any advanced leadership training program, be it through Scouting, church, school, job-based or corporate - the leadership skills taught might be applicable outside of that specific context, but the primary goal is to develop the skills needed to be successful in that specific goal. I think that, up until now, the NYLT program had managed to do both this well - train youth leaders very well in the context of a Scout troop, while conveying leadership skills that can be applied to any situation., within or outside of Scouting.

 

moose - Has the LDS church had any reaction to this particular change? I know that when they want to the LDS groups kind of just do their own thing, and usually seem to have National behind them. I wouldn't be surprised if councils with strong LDS membership adapt the NYLT program to serve those needs. Though, I hope that any discussion at the National level doesn't focus so much on keeping young ladies out of NYLT just because they're young ladies, but rather on developing quality advanced training courses targeted to the different programs' unique goals and methods. I have no problem welcoming young ladies to NYLT, and am sure that they will be excellent participants and staff members, and the councils can make any logistical adjustments necessary to accommodate both genders. However, I'm still sceptical that either the Boy Scout program or the Venturing program is *best* served by a combined training course.