Bylaws creation and leader issues

[FScouter]

The Beavah made to perfect example of why unit bylaws are a waste of time. Bylaws or not, no unit is going to pay a barrel of money for a trailer unless everyone is in agreement. When push comes to shove those that will block something will do so even if the bylaws say then "can't", and in the opposite case those that want to shove something down the group's throat will find a way to do so, bylaws notwithstanding.

[Beavah]

Yah, FScouter, yeh continue to be da most cynical fellow I've ever met when it comes to fellow scouters. I think yeh hit the nail on the head, though, but not in da way you intended.

 

If yeh don't have bylaws/policies of some sort, then every decision when there's a disagreement feels to the "losers" like someone "forced something down the group's throat." Because a decision has to be made, eh? Yeh either purchase da trailer or the opportunity goes away.

 

That feelin' that fellow adults are shoving an agenda down your throat comes from not havin' bylaws and procedures. Because when bylaws and procedures aren't in place, then the group is always stormin' about the process of how to make a decision and the loudest frequently win.

 

If yeh do have procedures in place, then a subgroup might "lose" the vote, but they feel like the process respected them. They had their say, same as everyone else. They might win the vote next time. That's why constitutional democracies work, eh? Yeh can have disagreements, resolve them through the process, and move on. People who can't stand each other can still respect da process. And that's why, in teaching citizenship, we expect Venturing crews to establish bylaws.

 

There's an additional piece, of course, in that society expects people to have such things in place to be fair. So if you're dealin' with somethin' like a treasurer who purchased an old $100 trailer from himself for $2000, having a process in place that wasn't followed is da only way you're likely to recover those monies. Or, if instead the question was whether to remove a boy from the unit, showin' that you followed a reasonable process that was in place might be important.

 

I think yeh are assuming that things in units are either perfect, with full consensus, or totally dysfunctional, with people who won't agree on the grass being green. But there's a lot of space between those, eh? Bylaws and policies aren't needed for da first. Bylaws and policies are useless for the latter, as yeh suggest.

 

But for everything in between, they are valuable.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[KC9DDI]

Beavah - It sounds like you're using an awful lot of absolutes in your last post. "...the group is always stormin' about the process..." "...having a process in place that wasn't followed is da only way you're likely to recover those monies..."

 

I think part of the reason there's some resistance to your train of thought is that others on this forum have been able to handle these kind of problems without needing bylaws or anything else at the committee level. There may be some ruffled feathers and people who feel they've been treated unfairly, but I don't think the existance of bylaws would change that. And I would worry that the discussion would also include "the rules aren't fair," "the rules don't cover this situation," "I wasn't here when we made these rules, and I think that..." - which really just seem to add further unnecessary complication to the issue.

 

As I've said, I'm in favor of troops developing a written set of procedures covering various situations. I guess I have a few questions of you regarding the extent that the troop committee should develop bylaws or policies:

1) How to identify which situations require a written bylaw or policy?

2) How to develop, vote on, ratify these policies?

3) If it is so essential for every , why does the BSA not offer guideance or training on developing such documents?

[Beavah]

It sounds like you're using an awful lot of absolutes in your last post.

 

Yah, we're all writin' opinion pieces here, eh? If yeh want me to put all kinds of legalistic qualifiers on statements I reckon I can, but I figure most folks think I'm longwinded enough as it is. . I will stand by da second, though. If the treasurer offs with the money in that way, not being able to show that the treasurer didn't have the authority to do so by pointing to a document will severly hamper your ability to recover da funds through legal action.

 

I think that's da difference in my perspective, eh? Commissioners tend to be around a lot of different units, not just ones that are functionin' well. You're entirely right, in a unit where a large majority of da folks are on the same page, things mostly work out. But a large group of new scout families or a leadership turnover, and all of a sudden things aren't as stable. Documents and procedures provide a bit of stability when da people don't.

 

Let's see now...

 

1) Yeh don't make bylaws or policies for situations. That's a common error. Yeh make 'em generic to apply broadly to many situations. Yeh never write a policy after "something bad happens" because that's just foolish reaction to a specific case. Policies need to be general. As for da rest, yeh go some of what I'd suggest above, eh? How are different decisions made? Who gets to make 'em? Who is on da group that makes decisions and who determines who's on that group? What are da procedures for handling "hard" cases?

 

2) Depends on your CO how you develop 'em. The CO might just impose them, as some do. Or da CO may be hands-off, leavin' it up to you. In that case, I'm fond of consensus for da first set. Otherwise an informal Roberts Rules style process, just because most folks are familiar with that. But if you're a self-chartered "Parents of Troop XXX" kind of unit, I really recommend yeh talk to an attorney familiar with association law in your state.

 

3) First, da BSA doesn't give guidance on all kinds of essential things, eh? Like how to handle difficult parents or how to work with kids on da Autism Spectrum or how to handle misbehavior on a campout. We expect yeh to come with some knowledge and abilities, and to make use of outside resources like ARC and LNT and NRA and PADI. Second, as I mentioned, da BSA does not interfere in unit governance. That is solely the province of the Chartered Organization that owns and operates the unit. That's an important part of da BSA's risk management.

 

I'm not pushin' bylaws on everyone, eh? Even though the BSA does recommend them for Venturing crews at da youth program level. . I think it's fine for some units to run without 'em, particularly small units that serve in areas where there's not a lot of diversity of opinion over how things should be done. . Bigger units or units with more diversity need to get a bit more formal and pro-active about communication. I think bylaws and procedures is just one important method of communication.

 

Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[semperfiscouter]

Thanks to everyone who's put forth their opinions, there def seems like there are two different camps of thought. I'm inclined to go with a simplistic, KISS, approach and have enough covered to provide more or less an SOP, guess we'll see how it works out shortly. Beavah - btw, what does ARC and LNT stand for? I'm familiar with the others. Also, what are some other useful org's or groups that you've dealt with in regards to Scouting? Just looking to get the most broad experience for the boys and have them exposed to different stuff than the status quo.... anyways - thanks again to everyone for providing their opinion!

 

YIS

Semperfiscouter

[Oak Tree]

American Red Cross

Leave No Trace

[emb021]

"what does ARC and LNT stand for?"

 

ARC= American Red Cross

LNT= Leave No Trace

 

"Also, what are some other useful org's or groups that you've dealt with in regards to Scouting?"

 

Depends on what you are looking for.

 

For outdoor knowledge, look at groups like Leave No Trace, National Outdoor Leadership Skill, Wilderness Education Association, Wilderness Medicine Institute, Project Adventure, and a few others. Look for local groups that may exist in your region or state. (Florida Trail Association, Appalachian Mountain Club, local geocaching groups, etc)

 

Other groups that would be useful are groups like Toastmasters (help you with public speaking, and their program "Youth Leadership Program" can be presented to scouts/venturers up thru 17).

 

Too many scouters, IMO, aren't involved in other organizations, so are very weak in knowledge of how groups SHOULD work. I can say that being an officer in groups like my Fraternity, parliamentary group, Toastmasters clubs, professional society and others have taught me a lot of things about leadership and organizations that I really didn't learn as a scout leader and later a scouter.

 

Hope that helps.

[FScouter]

I'm not pushin' bylaws on everyone, eh?

 

No? Sure sounds like you are.

 

The Beavahs couple of old guy buddies [that] just do whatever they want dont pay much attention to words somebody wrote on a piece of 100% rag paper and anointed as the official bylaws. And when the treasurer offs with the money the cops dont stop to check your bylaws stealing the Boy Scout troops money is already illegal there are laws against that sort of thing, (which by the way didnt stop the theft any more than bylaws did.)

 

To use a silly clich, where the rubber meets the road, bylaws dont mean squat.

 

Words, words, mere words, no matter from the heart:

The effect doth operate another way.

 

[Twocubdad]

It's been a while, but when I took pack committee chairman training and again with Troop Committee Challenge, we were taught committees are run by concensus, but ultimately decisions are the responsibility of the individual committee members responsible for particular areas. The purpose of the committee is for those individuals to come together and report to the group and coordinate with each other when those areas overlap.

 

For example, advancement issues should be decided by the advancement chairman and committee chairman in consultation with the unit leader. Money issues should be handled by the treasurer and committee chair. A multi-faceted decision, like a major purchase may involve the committee chair, unit leader, treasurer, equipment manager and fundraising chairman (who technically should report to the treasurer according to published BSA job descriptions). All of which gets reported to the full committee where other committee members offer input, especially if an issue impacts their area of operation.

 

Saying you run by concensus doesn't just mean you hope everyone agrees -- you have to work at it. Neither does concensus mean unamimity. Generally speaking, it means you don't do something unless most folks are generally okay with it. If a whole lot of folks are somewhat unhappy, I wouldn't move forward. Or if a couple people are really upset, I'd keep working the problem until a solution that most folks are comfortable with can be reached. That doesn't require a formal quorum, designated voting members or a quantative majority. The leadership simply needs to have the pulse of the committee and work to reach concensus.

 

Of course that always works that way if you happen to be in Troop 1, Pleasantville, USA (or maybe Stepford, for the older generation). What's the real-world application?

 

As it happens, Beavah, our troop has been discussing the need for a new trailer for almost a year now, so you hypothetical situation hit home. Since we don't have any sort of by-laws which address the sticking points, I been thinking through how we would handle it just given the guidance and training from BSA. It can be done.

 

After a year of talking about it, the key leaders (meaning the folks who are inconvenienced by the current small trailer) are in general agreement of the need for the trailer. My self (Scoutmaster), the CC, the dad responsible for equipment and the handful of adults and ASMs who camp regularly all see the need and support buying a second trailer.

 

Yeah, we tend to move slowly and have been talking about it for a long time. That's a distinct advantage in an organization like this. If the CC and I pushed a proposal through the committee in one meeting with little notice or debate and had the trailer two days later, that's likely to breed suspicion and dissent. If nothing else, after a year of struggling to find space to transport kids and gear, most parents have been around one or two Friday nights to see and understand the problem. Consensus building takes time.

 

But just for yucks, let's say that at the meeting we finally pull the trigger on a new trailer we have a couple parents who object to the expenditure generally and the one mom who wants the money to fund jamboree participants.

 

First, the idea to pay jamboree fees would be dispensed of rather quickly. Our budget is built on al-la-carte philosophy. We generally don't spend troop money on things which benefit only a few Scouts. Our Philmont crew is 100% self funded. Every campout, the Scouts who go camping divide the cost of the weekend's food and pay it themselves. This is a generally accepted -- although unwritten -- operating principle which is understood by the folks who have been involved with running the troop. While the group may want to revisit the principle in the long term, it would be highly unlikely that our committee would fund a few scouts going to jamboree instead of buying a trailer which would benefit the entire troop.

 

But let's say there are a fair number of parents generally against buying the new trailer. The trailer is not the problem, the trailer is one possible solution to the real problem, which is the inability to efficiently transport the volume of gear we have. Last weekend we had 42 kids and 13 adults camping in two separate trips. At best, we had two pick up trucks stacked high with gear. Securing lots of little pieces in the back of a truck isn't easy and it's not protected from rain. Rain is one thing, 65mph rain is another. As the driver of one of the two pickups, I'm not comfortable with the current system.

 

So, committee, if you don't want to spend money on a new trailer, how do you propose solving the problem? We're already struggling to have enough drivers for the BOYS, so simply saying we need more parents driving to carry the gear means more parents need to step up than are currently doing so. And if this means we're going to have 15-18 car caravan to go camping, someone needs to step up and serve as transporation coordinator. Volunteers? Really. Anyone? Anyone at all?

 

You can play games, hypothetical or real, forever. We will do what we can to build concensus among the committee and parents and find a solution everyone can live with. But the bottom line is this -- there are a few leaders who either by official position or simply their willingness to step up and take responsibility, who have the responsibility to look out for the best interest of the unit. If the COR, CC, unit leader, treasurer and quartermaster feel a particular purchase is in the best interest of the unit and it's long-term goals, it's going to get done. If there are a few parent/committee members -- or even a majority -- who disagree with the leadership, they can either find a new unit or go through the COR to effect a change in leadership.

 

But give the unit leaders credit for knowing how to manage a volunteer organization. If all decisions are made by fiat from the top, sooner rather that later there won't be a volunteer organization to manage.

[Beavah]

Yah, what EMB said!

 

Let's see about some others to add to the list.

 

WRMC - Wilderness Risk Managers Committee/conference. For folks who are into da risk management stuff.

There are a number of activity-specific groups.

 

American Canoe Association (ACA) & American Whitewater for canoeing and paddling. Great instructional program and resources.

American Sailing Association (ASA) and da Power Squadrons for boating. Again, good instructional programs and some available for free.

AMGA - American Mountain Guides Association is of course da big kahuna for professional mountain guiding, but the Mountaineers offers some excellent resources as well. There are also some industry groups like the climbing gymns association.

I've had good luck working with da Professional Ski Instructors of America (PSIA) and they have some nice resources for helpin' scouts learn how to teach skiing.

In addition to da NRA, the smaller shotgun associations I've found to be excellent to work with, even somewhat more approachable than the NRA with better instructors on average. I'm forgetting the acronyms...one for skeet, one for sporting clays.

 

Gotta run now, Mrs. Beavah's gettin' impatient. I'll try to add some more later.

 

Beavah