Q.. on Leave no trace

[moosetracker]

So I took a Leave No Trace 1 hour course.. 2 questions..

 

Backcountry is more & more requireing permits, and will tell you where you can camp.. I imagine if a state forest the permit is from the state.. If City owned City?? Otherwise how do you figure out who to get permits from??

 

Instructor said pee 200 feet (yards??) from a river/stream, and in different spots.. Participant said pee in river if nearby one.. Is this based on what the permit says?? If you didn't need a permit (or permit does not say) which would be the better way??

[Eagle92]

My guess would be to contact whoever owns the park you are camping in, i.e. NPS for national parks, state for state parks, city for city parks, and owners for private areas.

 

As for where to go, you better not pee in my water source! Seriously though, the participant is dead wrong, b/c folks will be drinking out of the river (fastest way to tick off a Canadian in the backcounthry is to stand up in a canoe and take a wee, or worse, sit on the aft deck of the canoe with you butt hanging over the side to take a dump, I kid you not!)

 

I thought it was 100yds from water sources, but if the LNT trainer says 200, I'd follow his lead.

[Beavah]

Yah, yeh get a permit from whomever owns the land, eh? And da rules are often area by area, so yeh have to check on the particular national forest or park (or state forest or park, or city park) that you're visiting.

 

So if you're visiting the Bridger Teton National Forest, yeh get a permit from the Bridger Teton ranger district that covers da area you're traveling.

 

Don't ever pee in or take a dump in rivers is da general guideline. It's a good one, since it works almost everywhere. It's almost always better to pee where nitrogen-fixing bacteria in da soil can get to work on things, or where sun can dry it out to basic salts. LNT is an ethic, though, not a rule set. The ethic is to learn and investigate and think carefully about all of our actions so as to minimize impact.

 

Blue water sailors will pee overboard in da ocean, but that's the exception that proves the rule. Compared with freshwater river corridors, there are a lot of nitrogen-fixing critters in da sea. And they're not drinkin' from it, eh?

 

LNT.org has a number of pamphlets that describe best practices in a wide variety of activities and types of country (desert, rainforest, river corridor, ocean, deciduous, high alpine, western US, eastern US, etc.)

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Stosh]

Caution: the following information might be difficult to consider....

 

If I'm not mistaken, I have read various articles and depending on where you will be, the rules change. Some say pack all human waste out. However on the Colorado (source for all S. California drinking water, pack out bowel movement, but urinate IN the river. Do not leave scent and salts near the river to draw animals. Medically speaking urine, unless there is a serious medical problem, is sterile and is cleaner than the water source nearby. The issue is more psychological than medical. Medically speaking, urine can be "recycled" up to 6-7 times before the salt levels reach dangerous levels, i.e. like drinking sea water. However, a solar still will remove those salts. In a life or death survival situation, this information may be sufficient to overcome the psychological issues and still be safe.

 

The permits should tell each location what is expected.

 

There is no general rule for all circumstances. However, if one needs a general rule, I would simply state pack all human waste out. A PVC biffy is easy enough to make that there should be no excuse.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[moosetracker]

Oh, I knew no Dumps in the river.. Everyone was in agreement with that..

 

But the pee in the river, is also something told to me by someone who is currently in a college program to be a wilderness guide, of some sort.. He also said something like besides the cat hole or poop shoots (if have to carry it out).. Another trick with the poop is to poop on a rock and spread it, so it dries fast and blows away..(somehow me spreading my poop on a rock like peanut butter, does not bring great images to mind.. Hopefully no one steps on my rock until it dries either.. ick!!)

 

But this is a kid currently learning in a college course, and spending summers being paid staff with these fancy thousand dollar wilderness trail packages.. I guess the class chooses a leader every semester and he keeps being elected, so I know he is not flunking out. (Kid wasn't one in the class though, it was someone else who echoed the pee in the river info..)

 

I guess I am not looking at it as one is wrong, one is right.. It seemed like neither two sides were argueing, just stating.. Maybe one is an older style, one is newer style.. Or only if the River is fast flowing to dispurse it quickly, do you pee in the river, but don't pee in a standing pond or lake..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[Oak Tree]

The participant may have heard someone discussing the advice for river canyons, but that is not generally applicable. From the Leave No Trace website (http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php)UrineUrine has little direct effect on vegetation or soil. In some instances urine may draw wildlife which are attracted to the salts. They can defoliate plants and dig up soil. Urinating on rocks, pine needles, and gravel is less likely to attract wildlife. Diluting urine with water from a water bottle can help minimize negative effects.

 

Special Considerations for River Canyons: River canyons often present unique Leave No Trace problems. The most common practice is to urinate directly in the river and pack out feces in sealed boxes for later disposal. Check with your land manager for details about specific areas. The general rule appears to be 200 feet, per http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles.phpDispose of Waste Properly+ Pack it in, pack it out. Inspect your campsite and rest areas for trash or spilled foods.

+ Pack out all trash, leftover food, and litter.

+ Deposit solid human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200 feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished.

+ Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products.

+ To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Some land managers want you to pee directly on the trail. Thought is it already damaged.

 

Yes, check with land managers

 

1 hour isn't enough leave no trace. The cubs in my pack probably get 5 hours a year of leave no trace. Every hike and every outing.

[moosetracker]

Yeah, We have someone really excellent in our area, who does a "Train the trainer" program which is a much longer presentation. I asked he contact me whenever he runs it again.

 

This one was at the Scouting U, which have really only 50 minutes with 10 minutes to move to a different class. I could have used more time..

[shortridge]

LNT educational sessions can be adapted to many different types of audiences and times.

 

The Trainer and Master Educator courses last several days.

[Basementdweller]

Master educator course last 5 days and cost $500 or more. I have already taken the two day course.

 

I would love to take it but....time off work and the cost is prohibitive

 

[JoeBob]

Gawd!

What about LNT can take 5 days to talk about???

 

You can say it in three words: Police your litter.

[shortridge]

JoeBob,

 

The Master Educator course is a train-the-trainer program - LNT principles and practices, plus how to run the Trainer workshops.

 

Dan

[JoeBob]

Thanks Dan,

 

I had followed the link to the LNT site and read the syllabus.

Interesting.

It was basically "Police your trash", with a little bit of situational common sense.

 

It took ten minutes, and was free.

Not five days and $500 to $830!

 

Thanks for trying to make me less ignorant.

 

[KC9DDI]

As far as I understand urine (as an aside, how many time can you start a sentence like that??), urine is sterile until it reaches the urethra, at which point it can mingle with bacteria, so its not really sterile by the time it exits the body. But, I think the general concern is less about bacteria, and more about some of the other components found in urine (urea, chloride, potassium, other ions, etc). From what I understand urine typically doesn't have much effect on soil, vegetation, etc, but its odor may attract some unwanted critters. I can't say for sure, but common sense is telling me that urinating into a relatively large non-stagnant body of water (stream, river, large lake, etc) probably isn't that harmful to anything, considering the very small concentration of urine to the very large amount of flowing water. I would think the concentration of yucky stuff that comes from human urine would be insignificant compared to the yucky stuff from other sources (other animals' urine and feces, carcasses of dead animals and fish, bird droppings, insect and fish eggs and larvae, rain water run-off, etc). I'd also think that it might be preferable to urinate into river rather than on land as the urine will then be quickly diluted and spread across a very very large area, rather than soaking into the soil in a very small area.

 

This is all just conjecture, but it makes sense to me. Anyone have any evidence suggesting this is not the case?

[BartHumphries]

Sure, you're filtering your drinking water anyway and not drinking straight from the river so as to avoid giardiasis, but the thought of someone urinating in another person's drinking water (even though it's extremely, extremely diluted and filtered out anyway) is just really yucky for most people (including me). And there's something else that you forgot...

 

The important thing is that more and more nowdays people aren't, uhm, how should I put this, sexually transmitted diseases are on the rise. By far, most filters only strain out macroscopic particles (dirt, giardia parasites, etc.) and some microscopic particles (down to bacteria size). Filters generally cannot strain out viruses. Some filters try to kill viruses with iodine treatments or ultraviolet radiation or something like that. Fortunately, that's not really a problem because animal and human diseases don't generally transmit, we're all inoculated against polio (we are, right?) and animals don't have hepatitis (can an animal even get hep? I don't think so).

 

Unless, though, someone who just urinated into your drinking water had hepatitis C or something less manageable. Granted, those viruses really can't survive outside the human body for very long, but the aqueous environment can allow them to survive for as much as five minutes, so I've been taught (I could be wrong). Water can travel a good distance in five minutes. Anyway, things like that are why every first aid kit nowdays should include some barrier methods like rubber gloves.

 

Anyway, I'm nobody official but that's my reasoning based on what I've been told, although I admit up front that I could have been taught wrong.