Tools of the Trade - Methods of Scouting

[Venividi]

"...being the BEST in the Council or giving your Scouts the opportunity to really lead their patrols and troop?"

 

I am having trouble understanding why these would be considered to be mutually exclusive.(This message has been edited by venividi)

[BrentAllen]

Seattle,

You will have to take your argument up with Green Bar Bill. When I started this Troop, I followed his advice. This is what he recommended the new SM say to his new group of Scouts at their very first meeting:

 

"The Troop we organize here must be one of the finest and most active Troops ever started. It must measure up with the best Troops in the Council. Every Scout in it must be right on the job all of the time to be the best kind of a Scout he can. Ours must be a winning team in the great game of Scouting!"

 

I've since followed the program he outlined to meet those goals. The boys bought into it, and they want to have one of the best Troops in the Council. They know which Troops are very strong, and they want to be included in that group. We had our District Camporee this past weekend. Our boys competed hard and really wanted to win Best Overall Patrol. They didn't achieve that goal, but they brought back plenty of hardware for their efforts. We had a very good turnout for the event, especially considering our 8th graders were down at Disney World for a band event. All but one of our new Scouts attended, and they had a blast - I've been getting emails and phone calls from parents ever since we got back telling me how much fun their sons had, and how they really enjoyed working with their patrols, cooking, setting up camp, etc. The boys make all this happen, not me.

 

Challenging the boys to do their best really isn't that hard. Setting low bars isn't hard, either. The Scoutmaster's VISION for the Troop sets the tone. If you think this can't be done without a "rigorous program of adult leadership" I suggest you get more experience. We have 4 ASMs for our Troop of 52 Scouts and 6 Patrols. Most trips we have 3 or 4 adults attending. If you think we can push all the boys in this program to be the best by ourselves, well, that is a very revealing comment from you - you have no idea what you are talking about. We are a Patrol Method Troop, beginning to end. We guide and mentor the boys in the PLC and they plan and carry out the program.

 

I suggest you read more from Green Bar Bill.

 

 

[BadenP]

Some good postings here, my take is that there is no one size fits all for every troop in the BSA. The SM has to sometimes devise his own methods to move his troop to achieving the BSA methods of scouting. Some troops just seem to fall into place quickly while in others achieving the BSA ideal each step is a difficult journey. I have worked with dirt poor inner city troops and upper middle class suburban troops and while the end goal may be the same the time frame,and the way there IS very different. My feeling is that any troop trying their best to live the scout oath and law is a good troop no matter how many "methods" they have achieved or still have left to reach. No matter what some may have convinced themselves of it is not the uniform that makes the scout it is the boy himself.

 

I was a ASM for a poor inner city troop years back where each boy really wanted to be in full uniform but all of them came from broken families with little to no income. So we started with getting some scout shirts from Goodwill and it took a couple of years to get them all one of their own, they shared eight used handbooks for 24 scouts, and used some really old camping equipment we had donated to the troop.These scouts started doing community service projects like cleaning gang graffitti, turning abandoned lots into playing fields and gardens with donations from local merchants. I would have put up this rag tag troop of boys against any troop in the country as living and exemplifying the true scouting spirit. Well some time later the troop was recognized by the leaders in the community and each boy received his own brand new uniform and handbook. That troop is still around and growing each year.

 

So no Brent it is NOT the full uniform that makes a troop a good troop it is the spirit and willingness of those boys to be scouts and live the oath and law that make them good scouts and a great troop.

[BrentAllen]

BadenP,

I completely agree, and I don't think I have ever said a Troop needs to be in full uniform to be a good Troop. On the other hand, I can show you plenty of examples where others have said, to the effect, "the full uniform Troops I have seen never went camping," or "the full uniform Troops were adult run," or "the full uniform Troops were Troop method," etc. It seems there are many, many Troops that claim to do great with every method, every part of their program, except uniforming.

 

What I have said is I don't see why our Troop and another down the street can be full uniform and the others can't. I don't see why Troops accept and call themselves "waist-up uniform Troops." They still have an expectation (just like we do) but with a lower bar. For me, to "do my best" means to follow the program as outlined by the BSA, to wear the uniform as described by the BSA.

 

If other Troops are "doing their best" I have no problem with it. I've had many discussions with other leaders that show they aren't doing their best - they say they can't get the boys to wear the pants or the socks or whatever, and they give up. Or they say if they pushed the full uniform, they would lose boys - they would quit. Well, then why aren't we losing boys? Why is our Troop growing while there's are shrinking?

 

Seattle, instead of asking about socks, you should have asked me about neckerchiefs or hats.

[Stosh]

I guess it all boils down to how much and which tools/methods are being used. Having a well run outdoor program is not mutually exclusive of having a full uniform. None of these methods are mutually exclusive, but like any tool, they can be under utilized or not used at all and still may get the job done.

 

I might have both a screw driver and a hammer in my tool box, both doing different jobs. However, if all I was interested in was getting the job done, I could merely hammer in all screws and thus never really feel the need to use a screw driver. The job gets done, but could the process be improved? Sure. That's the point of the methods. Each one focuses on a different situation and can be overly used, used just right or under used depending on the person using the tool. Bedecked uniforms on a backpack trip might be a bit of overkill at Philmont, but might be just right for an ECOH. On the other hand showing up in "half a uniform" for ECOH's have left a poor taste in the mouths of a few on this forum. Cub Scouts without neckers have raised a few eyebrows as have scouting programs with minimal or no outdoor activities. Sure, one can have a functional troop and drop a couple of the methods, or simply not use the methods to their fullest, and it still might work. Hammering in a screw might work, too. Living in an older house with back lathe and plaster, it is a good idea to drill a hole in the plaster before tapping in a nail!

 

I see benefit from all the methods, and ideally we should be working towards using them all to their fullest without going overboard with any of them.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Stosh

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Why?

 

 

And frankly, I found your reply to that question vague. Do you have sock inspections? If not, why not?

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Seattle,

Page 33 - "The BSA's official uniform includes a Scout shirt, Scout pants or Scout shorts, Scout belt, Scout socks, and shoes or hiking boots."

So, of course, the boys in our Troop need to wear socks to be counted as "in uniform."

 

Why ask about the neckerchief and hat? Because they are decided upon by the boys. Our Troop doesn't wear either one - their choice. I really wish they would come up with a custom neckerchief, and they may in the future, but that is their decision and I respect it.

 

You seem to think that since I have a vision for our Troop that I rule it with an iron fist and the boys don't have any opportunity to lead or make decisions. If that is what you think, you couldn't be more wrong. At the Camporee, the SPL let me know where the Patrols were camping, so we in the Old Fogey Patrol took the area that was left. I had one PLC meeting Friday night to remind the PLs to watch out for their new Scouts, that they would probably be leaving water bottles and rain gear behind at events. After that, they were on their own. I had to go set up an event to run first thing Saturday morning, and I was there until lunch. After lunch, I went around taking pictures and visiting with other SMs I knew. I didn't know 3 of our OA Scouts were participating in the Tap Out ceremony until we got to the campfire. I did suggest to our SPL that we invite another Troop over for a campfire program, since our site had a nice big fire ring with benches. He took it from there, finding their SPL and working out a plan with him for skits, timing, etc. I never heard another word about it until their Troop showed up and our guys were building the fire. Unfortunately I didn't get to see the program since I had to take one of our Scouts to the emergency room for a cut he got using my Gransfors Bruks hatchet, but from what I heard, things went well. The Scout got 3 stitches and we were back by 1:00 AM to enjoy some very heavy rain.

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

Heh, heh! Just checking! Are you checking for socks or SCOUT SOCKS!? You are a little vague on that point...

 

Your further descriptions of your troop program lend support to the idea that you aren't imposing adult leadership on your troop. That's one way of getting "results," so I hope you don't hold a measure of scepticism about that against me ---after all, I only know what you tell me about your program.

 

 

I am not too impressed by your drawing Green Bar Bill like a pistol. I get my Scouting methods margely from BSA training, and your description of Green Bar Bill's methods are somewhat different than BSA training.

 

For example, you cite GBB setting a standard of being the best troop in the council. But there is no competition or recognition for such an honor. Even on a district level the only competition of that kind is at Camporee --- and that's for the best patrol, not the best troop, in most cases.

 

Why do you suppose that's the case?

 

[Beavah]

I remember bein' like BrentAllen, eh? Most of us do. I was SM for a troop that was more active in the outdoors than what BrentAllen describes, a bit less well uniformed (no socks ), probably a bit more sound in terms of adult relationships and a bit less on advancement. Took me many years to figure out patrol method and real youth leadership. Oh, we were better than some, even many, at least in our own minds. But yeh don't have real youth leadership unless the youth can change da rules and culture and way things are done.

 

I reckon BA's not quire ready for thinkin' further on things at da moment, eh? He's got to get a bit further along before he's ready to see past the methods in the way Eagledad and Eamonn and I am tryin' to describe.

 

Now, havin' been a unit leader in a bunch of different units and since spent many years as a commish helpin' many more, yeh get to realizing that what matters is the boys, not the program. All of the methods, as Eagledad describes, just exist to give da lads the opportunity to make choices and experience results. The real best troops realize that, and their attention is focused on the kids, not the methods. In fact, they're always tinkerin' with da methods to set things up to meet the needs of the kids they have. If yeh ever met Bill Hillcourt, Bill was like that, eh? Didn't care much for static, parlor, book-based scouting. Liked things out in the field where yeh are adjusting things dynamically.

 

That's one of the reasons I think Rover-aged young folks make the best scouters, as most of da world has discovered. They are less likely to get caught up in da books and methods and more likely to keep that dynamic, outdoor focused youthful side of scoutin' going.

 

Us older folks belong on the wisdom and support side where we can't do as much harm.

 

Beavah

 

[Twocubdad]

Now that you mention it, SP, we do check for Scout socks. Hats and neckerchiefs, too. We don't do it often, occasionally our committee chair shows up with a couple boxes of Klondike Bars (he really likes Klondike Bars) and conducts a uniform inspections. Full uniform (hat, necker, shirt, belt, pants and socks) earns ice cream. We occassionally do similar campsite inspections based on a model campsite -- fire buckets full, kitchen area clean, gear stowed properly, duty roster posted, etc. It's a reminder of what best practices are and a check to see if they're being used.

 

I think one reason folks tend to get so wrapped around the axle about uniforming is it's really the only objectively measurable method there is. And it's easy and doable. Kinda like why we bomb Lybia and invade Iraq but not North Korea or Iran. Unfortunately, that also makes it susceptable to abuse from folks who are looking for a method of thowing their weight around (sorry, bad pun.)

 

So why worry about official scout socks? Because it's a matter of discipline. It's about following rules and doing as we are asked. It's about realizing there is more going on than whatever the heck we feel like doing. If everyone in my patrol is in full uniform, but I feel like wearing my favorite Whinnie the Pooh socks, then I need to take one for the team.

 

And it's about acknowledging that there are greater things in the universe an ourselves. I heard a Rabbi give a great explaination for keeping Kosher once. Why do folks keep Kosher, he asked? No cheeseburgers? We've slaughter the cow and ground its flesh into patties and we're worried that the cow will be offended it's cooked long with its mother's milk? Really? And when was the last time you heard of someone with trichinosis? The original purpose of food sanitation is pretty much obsolete, so why go to the trouble to keep Kosher?

 

Because God tells us to.

 

There is a greater power than ourselves to which we should listen and obey. Scouting explicitly requires that in its religious principles, but I believe it is implicit in other areas, like citizenship. We obey the speed limit even though we're the only car in sight on a straight, flat interstate highway.

 

Your speed may vary.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Two Cub,

 

I liked the idea of giving out rewards for being in a full uniform ---socks included.

 

Your post made me dive into my drawers to see if I could lay my hand on a pair of Scout socks. I know I saw at least one just a couple of days ago, but I couldn't find any when I looked.

 

 

I just know that eventually I'll find them, and one will be ankle high and the other will be knee high! Would I get an ice cream for that?

 

 

I'm just hopelessly slack I'm afraid!

[BrentAllen]

SP,

No, I don't check for socks - the PLs do. And yes, they must be Scout socks to count. The boys enjoy playing this game, earning points for Honor Patrol, and they are probably harded on each other than I would be. Your ragging on us for doing so is similar to the attitude that is plaguing our education system - the kids at the bottom of the class ragging on those at the top for working hard and succeeding. Those at the bottom seek to bring everyone down to a mediocre level so no one looks bad.

 

Beavah, you wrote, "But yeh don't have real youth leadership unless the youth can change da rules and culture and way things are done." You have obviously studied our Troop very closely and, with all your experience as a leader and as a commissioner, you surely see some areas where we need to improve. So, please, help me out - give me 5 or 6 specific items we need to work on. I'm sure you have more, but I'll be happy with 5 or 6. Feeback is a gift. I look forward to seeing your experienced suggestions.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Brent Allen,

 

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

 

I wasn't being critical of your troop, I was trying to find out more about how it worked. You've managed to provide incentives to encourage your Scouts to set a high standard of performance for themselves, and I respect that.

 

My bias was to give Scouts the freedom to decide for themselves what their standards would be. They might set them high in some areas and not find some other things worth much effort.

 

Frankly, I didn't see it as my job to have a vision of high standards to which I would work to get Scouts to conform. Instead, they had to face the consequences of their own decisions and actions on camping trips, camporee and other activities.

 

I mentioned that I have some issues with Green Bar Bill and his idea of adopting a goal of being the best troop in the council.

 

That isn't an objective set for Boy Scout troops that I'm aware of. Councils don't have such a competition. I suggest there is a reason for that and that the reason is that there are a variety of ways to have a quality Scout program, and that none of them are objectively the "best" way to run a troop program.

 

As I look through the "Journey to Excellence" metrics, I see a framework for evaluating whether a unit has a quality program, but it's not about being the "best" troop in the council.

 

It sounds like you can inspire your Scouts to adopt high standards of performance for themselves, and I respect that.

 

But if that was our standard for Scoutmasters, we would have few of them. A quality Scout program doesn't require that kind of goal or leadership, in my opinion. I suggest that it's perfectly legitimate to give Scouts the opportunity to decide for themselves what their standards will be in the light of the Scout Oath and Law and other ideals of Scouting.

 

I suggest that I haven't been "ragging" on you or ridiculing your program. I respect your program the way you describe it. I simply think that quality Boy Scout programs can be run in a variety of ways.

 

I don't think you believe that's the case. You are a disciple of Green Bar Bill and you believe he has the right and perhaps the only right answer.

 

Well, I think you are wrong, but you are entitled to your particular methods of Scouting, and I wish you well with them.

 

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Green Bar Bill's way is NOT the only way?

[Beavah]

So, please, help me out - give me 5 or 6 specific items we need to work on.

 

Da quote yeh used was me talkin' about a troop I'd worked with, eh? Not about you, BA.

 

None of us here can offer particular guidance to your troop, BrentAllen. As yeh say, we can't see it.

 

What we can see is da way yeh talk and think about it. So the only advice we can give is advice to you as SM, based on what we see from what and how you're sayin' things. That's the feedback we're tryin' to give.

 

Now, if it were real life and you were in my council, I'd go much slower, eh? Just chat with yeh at roundtable or 'round a campfire or after a meeting here and there. Build up a relationship, plant seeds slowly so as not to trigger the knee-jerk negative response to any question or suggestion that yeh have. Do more with example and a lot less with words.

 

But this is a virtual world, and yeh can't do that as easily. So yeh just put a few ideas out there and hope that the fellow on da other end of the wire is a good and thoughtful sort who will take it for what it's worth and think about it beyond his initial defensive reaction. I reckon most scouters are that sort. You included.

 

So yeh have my feedback already, eh? It'd be very similar to Eagledad's. Yeh don't talk enough about kids compared to the really great Scoutmasters I know, includin' old Green-Bar. I tell business people that no matter what they have on their wall as their corporate mission, yeh can always tell what their real mission is by where they spend their money and their time. Yeh spend your time here talkin' about methods and program achievements with great passion, startin' with uniform. But as several of us have mentioned, that's adult stuff, and usually reflects an adult-directed focus. It's also the external, easily-measurable stuff, not the harder, internal stuff.

 

It's just a guess from afar, eh? Could be totally off base. But as yeh say, feedback is a gift, and we took an oath to help at all times, even when our tools aren't that great.

 

Beavah