Q: ref, GtSS, Shooting Sports Section

[Eagle1973]

The Guide to Safe Scouting, Shooting Sports section has been updated and is better than it ever has been, but...

 

How does one recommend changes to the GtSS?

 

The new and improved section still falls short. The new requirement for the NRA certified instructor and the NRA certified RSO restricts opportunities for small groups of scouts to work on the MBs or simple learn safe shooting. I have a case were a scout with a summer camp partial and his father engaged the chief instructor at local range in order for the scout to finish up. The fully qualified/certified instructor met with father and son to finish the MB, the 3 were the only ones at the range. The new GtSS wouldn't allow this. The GtSS would require the instructor, a RSO and father and son in order to be in keeping with the guidelines.

 

Also, for shotgun, it labels scouts as younger and older when in comes to multiple shots and type of shotgun. My son was shooting skeet and sporting clays at the national level with SCTP (Scholastic Clay Target Program) as a 12 year old. If scouts join at the 10 year mark and continue to the 18 year mark, is a 12 yo experienced shotgun shooter a young or old scout? Granted, the MB requirement is earned with single shots, but what do you do after the MB is earned???? I recommend experienced and inexperienced scouts, as recommended by the instructor.

 

The permitted rifle type is specifically stated now, but discounts other action types that, in my qualified opinion, would be perfectly safe for a scout to use and are not tubular magazine fed... like grandpop's serviceable rolling block 22, or dad's break action .22. Additionally, IMO, the Cub Scout guidelines should read much like the Boy Scout's, but be limited to BB. 4H starts their shooting sports program with 9 year olds. SCTP starts at 8, I believe.

 

Minor issues with the Venturing requirement, but that's enough for now.

 

So, the question again is who do I contact? When I contact my local council, I get a head scratch and that's about it. I can find how to donate money to National, but no other contact method is easily found.

[jhankins]

Contact your council's shooting sports director and talk to them about this. I've been in contact with mine since the changes were eluded to back in the spring of 2010 and he's been able to clarify some things for me.

[BadenP]

And National worries about Laser Tag, lmao.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello Eagle,

 

 

I don't consider myself an Xpert in interpreting or applying G2SS rules.

 

But G2SS only describes rules for official Boy Scout acticities. You may decide to do any activity you wish as a family and you are not bound by G2SS rules.

 

The same thing goes for things like karate classes or tackle football. Such activities may be proscribed by G2SS and would therefore not be suitable as activities for a Scout troop. But there is no reason why boys can't participate in such sports and qualify for merit badges and such while doing so.

 

That's my understanding anyway. I'm sure if I'm wrong you'll see four or five people jump all over me!

 

 

 

[qwazse]

Not jumping on your case SP.

 

E73, talk to your council about getting as many of your shooting instructors NRA certified. This is a huge bottleneck for any scouts who want to go shooting as a troop or a patrol.

 

It is possible that your council will require NRA certification before accepting an individual as a MB counselor.

 

And, brace yourself, similar certification from the NAA may soon be required from any expert on bowstrings and fletchings.

 

As for the details: somebody asked someone else to make a rule. And this is what you get. It's not getting changed back without much pain. But, if you think it will be better for the kids, start the crusade by giving a call to the national office.

 

(Now everyone who's tried this can jump!)

[Eagle1973]

So there is no email for National? Email makes it convenient for me, the volunteer.

 

Wish National would open up discussion before they change the Guide, or am I not on that email list? :-/

[Beavah]

Nobody is on that mailin' list, sadly. If Irving really wanted to make da documents like G2SS more sound, they'd post proposed changes for comment and benefit from da input of experienced scouters from all over the country.

 

At least Richard and a few others are lookin' in on various discussions different places, and seem to be usin' 'em to address the more glaring issues.

 

Of course, if Irving eventually did start listenin', what would we all have to complain about?

 

Beavah

 

[RichardB]

Eagle1973, IIRC your comments came in as a question and were passed onto / are being reviewed by the shooting sports task force, SSTF, and their advisor. So unless that was someone else named Steve from VA you already found a way. Give it time.

 

Be prepared for more info as the SSTF moves forward with several guides, updates and changes. Suggest that would not get my hopes up for major changes to age appropriate guideance nor would I suggest that the requirements to have an RSO (whose job as I'm sure you know is to run the range, not instruct or coach) will be much modified.

 

As to the qualifications of the SSTF, doubt there is anyone with more trigger or shooting sports teaching time volunteering for scouting.

 

Richard

 

[Eagle1973]

Thank you RichardB. Feedback that my msg was rcvd and being considered would have useful. As well as an easier method for submitting input. The second time I searched for the input form, I couldn't find it again. Should've bookmarked it.

 

I don't know who is on the SSTF or their experience, but there are lots of good safe ideas out here from folks that I do know.

 

RSO requirements: In the scenario I provided where there was one instructor, a scout and his father, how should the GtSS be interpreted? Could the MB counselor/NRA Instructor/certified RSO sign the scout's blue card?

 

Age guideline: So, what is the definition of younger and older scout? A Terms of Reference document is requested. I still maintain that experienced/inexperienced would be better. Would my son, with national level shooting experience at age 12, be considered young or old? I would have to check the dates, but he might have earned his NRA Distinquished Expert before his Shotgun MB. I'm pretty sure he did because I didn't want my name on my son's blue card without backup, based on my experience when I was a scout...

 

I guess what I am really getting at is that it is my hope that BSA would back me in a court of law if, God forbids, an accident occurs while I'm leading an event at a range. My hope (hope should not be viable course of action, but...) is that if I follow the GtSS, BSA would back me up. My intent is to effect change to the GtSS where it provides the best for all, "coverage" for the volunteer and "opportunity" for the youth.

 

You have my point of contact information, please provide to the SSTF.

[John-in-KC]

Two old and gold rules:

 

Forgiveness is usually better than permission.

 

Be careful what you ask for, you may well get it.

 

For those who don't remember, everyone whined about the definition of an "Active Scout" for Advancement. We got one. Didn't make people very happy, did it?

 

If you ask to be bound up by policy, in my experience, bureaucracy will provide you that binding ... and then you're really stuck.

 

To close, to quote the old military radio prowords, "I say again:"

 

Forgiveness is usually better than permission.

 

Be careful what you ask for, you may well get it.

 

[Eagle1973]

KC, normally I would agree, but in this case we're dealing with firearms and a litigious society. I would like a dialog with the SSTF, because either they want to make it too hard for us or they don't have the experience of contingency planning...

[John-in-KC]

E73,

 

Then suck it up, and do what National tells you to.

 

I'm retired US Army. I've opened and run 203mm direct fire ranges at Grafenwoehr. I think I know how to run a safe range.

 

I'm not NRA RSO. I'm not running any ranges in my Council.

 

It's obvious you didn't want to hear the answer. Well, the answer's been given you. Suck it up and just do it.

[Eagle1973]

Really KC? So all your time in the Army, you never engaged your seniors for the benefit of your troopers, bummer, I feel sorry for the young men and women that were trusted in your care. Gee, when I was in the service of our country, I often sought the counsel of my senior enlisted, listened to their input, provided feedback and then issued clear, concise and thorough orders (guidance), when the situation permitted it, of course. I expected my senior enlisted to come forward when something was not quite right, maybe, just maybe, they may know more than I. I made it known that I could be properly approached.

 

If National (or my local council) did the same, especially providing a method for feedback and have the courtesy to inform me that my message was received and under consideration, I wouldn't have brought this discussion to an open forum requesting the help of the vast experience present on this forum (read: senior enlisted). Then maybe, just maybe, those of us in the trenches, would at least have the illusion that we mattered and would be more willing to "go out and draw fire, Ranger" in the future.

 

OBTW, A 203mm anything is clearly not permitted by the GtSS, I agree with that one. Besides, I couldn't afford the ammo for even a demo. Furthermore, if I took your advice and everybody else did, why is there a Guide to Safe Scouting? I'm all for less admin.

[Eagle1973]

My persistence is beginning to pay off. I have been contacted by the "keeper of the Guide to Safe Scouting".

 

Here is a link to fill out a form if you have questions that concern safety. http://scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GotQuestions.aspx

 

Hopefully, the Scouters that receive it will provide feedback that your message was received and the current disposition.

 

Another hopefully, I'll be contacted by the "subject-matter experts" to whom my concerns were sent.

 

I'll keep y'all posted.